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June 17, 2005Words mean things. “Torture” means more than rap musicAnd it means more than having to stand for a few hours, or a hot, stuffy room, or the air conditioner turned up too high, or a cold meal instead of three hot ones. There is “information gathering” and there is torture. Information gathering is what we are supposed to do (what our intelligence people were supposed to be doing for years, remember, except they weren’t allowed to talk to “bad people” under Clinton?) in order to collect information which will help to prevent further attacks on our nation, our vessels, our interests around the world, our citizens and - hopefully - our troops. When we are trying to collect such information from people who hate us and want to kill us, who are trained to lie and to withhold information, we are sometimes forced to make situations a little unpleasant for those people, in the hopes that they will spill the beans. That means we can’t give them foot massages and rub their backs and say, “I’ll be your best friend, if you’ll just tell us….” It means that while our interrogators at GITMO must not and ought not and…it must be said DO NOT…submit these prisoners to fingernail-pulling, water tortures, routine beatings, etc, they ARE obliged to make their prisoners uncomfortable enough to persuade them. So if that means making them sit in a room with (gasp) a WOMAN, or scaring them with a dog, or making them a little too hot or cold, or playing music they don’t like, or keeping them awake for a while when they’d rather sleep…well…it seems to me that we’re talking a minimal, acceptable means of intelligence gathering, in a war unlike any other. 3000 of our countrymen are dead…actually many hundreds more are dead, if you count those who died throughout the 1970’s, 1980’s and 1990’s at the hands of Islamic fundamentalist extremists. (Imagine that…they’ve been getting away with murder for thirty years, and all the Democrats can do is object to a president doing something about it.) If AlQ could have killed 50,000 on 9/11, they would have. And because that is a fact - not a fantasy, but a reality - we have to do a little bit more than pander to every publicity or power- seeking organization which comes down the pike breathing hellfire and calling Gitmo a “Gulag”, comparing our troops there to Nazis, Communists slaughterers, to Pol Pot’s killers. Note, btw…no one has died at Gitmo. But a few people have been made uncomfortable. Discomfort is not torture. Fear is not torture. Refusing to drink water you are offered is not torture. Loud music is not torture. Women who smoke cigarettes in your presence are not torture. Humiliation is not torture. I grant you, none of it is NIIIIICE… But…I wasn’t aware that we were trying to be NIIIICE to the people who want to kill us. That didn’t work for Chamberlain, and it won’t work for Durbin, either. Being NIIIICE will not provide us with the information we need in order to fully and finally crack the deeply evil and murderous rings which would gas a city if they had the means, which would unleash a dirty bomb in a subway, if they had the means. It won’t help us to bring to heel those people who would, given the chance, slit Dick Durbin’s throat from ear to ear, no matter how copiously he wept over their “horrible” treatment at the hands of the terrible men and women of the US Armed Forces. There is such a thing as torture. And it is terrible, evil, reprehensible and wrong. We’re hearing from some Democrats that GITMO, and the soldiers who work there, are the equal of Saddam’s prisons, torture cells and rape-rooms. Got that? Go look at the pictures and think about that: The Democrats are saying that the place where prisoners sleep outside in the carribean night air (I’d pay cash money to be able to do that) with all of their (quite sumptuous and hot) meals provided (and prepared with sensitivity to their religious dietary laws) the place that has handed out 1400 Korans, and prayer mats, which has scheduled five prayer hours a day, the place which has provided outstanding medical and dental care to its prisoners and limited its “persuasive” efforts at intelligence gathering, decreeing that nothing shall bring serious harm, serious pain or death…heck, the prisoners can’t even be shoved without permission…is THE EQUAL TO SADDAM’S TORTURE CHAMBERS, PRISONS AND RAPE ROOMS. Dick Durbin should resign from his office. He is unfit for it. And serious Democrats (and moderate Republicans) who want to maintain some level of respectability and credibility need to denounce his scandalous, extreme, untrue, distorted and disgraceful charges. As did John Kerry during Vietnam, when he testified about the “Jengis Kahn” behavior of US Troops, Dick Durbin has given our enemy headlines, and fodder to promote more hate, more mis-understanding, more distrust, more rabble rousing. For people who say they want the war to be over, Durbin and the Democrats seem to be doing all they can to fan the flames that will keep it going and going. And just think, all of this…ALL of it…is coming about as part of the “circle the wagons for Newsweek” efforts of the press and the left. And of course…the rest of it is about electoral politics. Because the president has the wrong letter after his name. That sounds harsh, doesn’t it? Some might feel the need to tell me that President Johnson was a Democrat, and that the left protested against Vietnam on his watch. But then I’ll only be forced to reply that this is not 1969 - no matter how much the left WANTS it to be - and that when a Democratic President, in the 1990’s took military action in Bosnia (without - gasp - getting permission from the UN!) the press and the left had no problem with it. No problem at all. Our people were supposed to be home “by Christmas” back then, remember? We still have soldiers there. And no one is calling for an exit strategy. And if President Bush had a D after his name, instead of an R, the same people who vilify him would be calling him a great liberator and defender of human rights throughout the world. And Amnesty International would perhaps be looking at France’s treatment of people in the Ivory Coast, or China’s crackdown on Christians, or perhaps the whole world would be looking at the horrors of Dafur, and doing something to save the people who are living through daily torture. Daily. Torture. But for now, there is a Republican in the White House, and the worldwide machines of the left can only focus on one issue; how to hurt America and the American President, for daring to DO. And to BE. Clearly, when the American President is a Democrat, every inhumane action in the world will cease to take place, and the rest of the problems of the world will be seen to. North Korea. AIDS in Africa. Islamofascism. Eurabia. Terrorism. Tribal warfare. Homelessness. Just like it was allllll taken care of LAST time. Do you remember, after 9/11, the videotape of the “west bank,” which showed us Islamofascists dancing in the streets at the sight of the WTC falling and the Pentagon burning? Do you remember the woman in the black hijab, who shoved her face into the camera, ululating in obscene joy? I remember her. I was worried, once upon a time, that if John Kerry made it to the White House, with his foggy, unclear (or at least poorly articulated) idea about what the “War on Terror” meant, we might have to see that woman again. I worry that the overplayed and exaggerated “horror” of the Democrats, on the subject of GITMO, may end up causing us to have to see that woman again, as our enemies, emboldened and encouraged by the reckless rhetoric of Dick Durbin and others, find inspiration where they should instead be finding a respectful sort of fear. UPDATE: Sigmund, Carl and Alfred have more to say on Durbin. Michelle Malkin has a round-up of what the papers are saying about Durbin. Not surprisingly, the NY Times and the Washington Post do not mention it. Varifrank has an excellent take on things, as usual. Froggy Ruminations wants Durbin out of office, now, and Dirty Harry is about as fed-up-angry as I have ever seen him. Meanwhile Buster has asked me to order this I HEART GITMO tee shirt for him. I’m ordering two.
And there is, in case you missed it - more Dem Madness, here. http://theanchoressonline.com/2005/06/17/words-mean-things-torture-means-more-than-rap-music/trackback/ 27 Responses to “Words mean things. “Torture” means more than rap music” |
June 17th, 2005 at 2:52 am
These people don’t know the difference between REAL torture and frathouse razings.
June 17th, 2005 at 4:59 am
The Durbins, the Michael Moores, et alii are forcing us to decide: Either we are the decent and just people we want to think we are, or we aren’t.
If we aren’t, then the Durbins, the Michael Moores, and their associates will soften our wills to defend ourselves and succor the helpless of the world. We’ll withdraw from the most important world-changing effort since World War II, and ultimately lose tens of thousands more fellow citizens to Islamic terrorists, if not a whole city or our entire society.
If we are, Senator Durbin will soon be ejected from his office, along with a gaggle of his fellow travelers. We’ll finally get down to ridding our house of those who want us to “see the other side,” when the “other side” consists of murderers, genuine torturers, perverters of religion, and would-be tyrants.
The chips are down, ladies and gentlemen. Where did you place your bets?
June 17th, 2005 at 6:28 am
i am so sickened by the mentality of these absolute idiots who are unable or unwilling to see the reality of the situation. your writing is well done and vividly illustrates the stupidity and narrowmindedness of these people. i would venture to say that these terrorist prisoners are living better than some americans. i ask, what planet do people like durbin live on? they must be so well cushioned from reality that they are incapable of realizing that these terrorists live to kill. that it is not our job to ‘be polite and ask nicely if they feel like telling us all about their plans to annihilate anyone who is not of their extreme islamofascist persuasion’. i only hope that these fools won’t be the end of us all.
June 17th, 2005 at 6:34 am
-I quote from the International Convention On Torture, signed by the United States:
-”For the purposes of this Convention, the term “torture” means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person…
-No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat of war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture…
-Each State Party shall undertake to prevent in any territory under its jurisdiction other acts of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment which do not amount to torture as defined in article 1, when such acts are committed by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity.
-Each State Party shall ensure that its competent authorities proceed to a prompt and impartial investigation, wherever there is reasonable ground to believe that an act of torture has been committed in any territory under its jurisdiction.”
June 17th, 2005 at 7:14 am
Thanks, Joe, for clarifying that there is not, in fact, torture going on in Gitmo. Perhaps the left should consider that the alternative to what we are legally doing in Gitmo and around the world with “detainees” is that we could just declare that the Geneva Convention DOES apply to these jihadis (which it doesn’t), and end then summarily execute each one of the prisoners (as the Geneva Convention allows) for fighting us out of uniform. Rather than do that, which is admittedly pretty harsh (but perfectly legal) the US takes the unprecedented step of keeping these lunatic murderers alive in pretty damned good conditions. Yes, that’s JUST what Hitler and Stalin and Pol Pot did in similar circumstances. Just another example of why it is impossible to take the Donks or the left seriously any longer. Fighting a war their way guarantees defeat.
June 17th, 2005 at 7:40 am
“quite sumptuous”- LOL- haqvfe you ever EATEN insitution food? Sumptuous it ain’t;-) And “dental care”…going to the dentist IS torture! Definately. Root canals for all my enemies!
Okay, just playing. My bf and I have had this debate-I’m pretty ok with treating them a little rough. I’d far rather we threaten to cover devout men with menstrual blood than cover them in their own blood from doing actual pysical harm. And sometimes, just sometimes, the ends do justify the means.
I’m terrified that support for this war will erode, and we won’t finish it. That would be a disaster. I didn’t support it 2 years ago, thought it was a bad idea- but we’re there, and it would be far, far worse not to finish the job. For them. As well as for us.
June 17th, 2005 at 8:04 am
This is a serious issue, and I don’t mean to make light of it, but….
I read that guards forced a prisoner to stand in the hot sun for two hours.
This was denounced as “Torture.”
I call it “Disney World During the Summer.”
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June 17th, 2005 at 8:05 am
Amen sister.
June 17th, 2005 at 8:18 am
Excellent post! How quickly we forget that a few months ago Trent Lott was forced to resign his leadership position because of a poor choice of words at Strom Thurmond’s birthday party. Yet here we have the #2 Democrat in the Senate saying something that borders on sedition and the major leaders of the Democratic party can’t find the backbone to say he’s wrong. That’s why the Dems are wandering in the wilderness and can’t connect with middle America
June 17th, 2005 at 8:19 am
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Filed under: General — @ 8:19 am
The Anchoress goes off on a wonderful rant today co [...]
June 17th, 2005 at 9:06 am
This is an example of what John Derbyshire so aptly termed “Better dead than rude,” and if it isn’t stopped, it’s going to guarantee that a lot more of us end up dead.
June 17th, 2005 at 9:57 am
Friday Blog Round-Up
I figured I haven’t done a major round-up in a while, so I’d do one today…with a twist. I’m openly inviting bloggers everywhere to do a trackback to this post, and I’ll add whatever article they trackbacked with. Fun, huh?
John Hawkins at Ri…
June 17th, 2005 at 10:29 am
SMACK! Outta the park, with the bases loaded!
June 17th, 2005 at 10:43 am
An excellent post, thank you!
June 17th, 2005 at 10:48 am
During WWII, those islamofascists who attacked our soldiers while wearing “civvies” would have been lined up against the wall and shot as spies. Now we’re concerned that the lemon chicken isn’t seasoned properly, so they are being torrrrrrrrrtured!!!!
June 17th, 2005 at 10:55 am
You always make the most sense… with style. Thak you.
June 17th, 2005 at 10:58 am
The Left doesn’t believe a single word of what they say. And no, we never signed that modified Geneva Convention doc the Left cooked up in the 1990’s, designed to ultimately protectthemselves when the world had enough of them…
They would be singing the same tune if the terrorists were put up in the Four Seasons…
Dick Durbin should be in jail right now for disclosing top secret information about the existence of our stealth satellite program…Why isn’t he? Oversight members are sworn to secrecy….
June 17th, 2005 at 10:58 am
THANK YOU:)
June 17th, 2005 at 11:18 am
Joe, when was that Convention document signed? By whom? Is it binding?
June 17th, 2005 at 11:29 am
Dick Turbin
Now that Senator Turbin has been called out on his remarks comparing American soldiers to Nazis, he is refusing to appologize. In response he said, “This administration should apologize to the American people for abandoning the Geneva Conventions.”
…
June 17th, 2005 at 11:50 am
Durbin should be pressed hard, from now on, to state and elaborate his views about the prison treatment of dissidents in Castro’s Cuba. As has been pointed out, Durbin compared Gitmo to Stalin’s gulags, the Nazi death camps, and the Khmer Rouge, but he never mentioned Castro’s Cuba. Not only is Castro’s Cuba the darling of the left, but, in particular, Durbin’s money source Archer Daniels Midland Company wants relations normalized with Cuba.
Durbin, tell us in detail about the prison treatment of dissidents in Castro’s Cuba. Is it better or worse than what happens in Gitmo? What do you think of Fidel Castro? Che Guevara? Please back up each of your response by pointing out evidence.
Durbin should be asked these questions again and again and again and again and again. He should also be asked repeatedly whether he thinks that he deserves to be censured by the Senate, and why he has not yet resigned.
June 17th, 2005 at 12:52 pm
While I certainly think Durbin was obscene in comparing our actions in Gitmo with the torture techniques used by the Nazis, Pol Pot, or the Soviet Gulag, I do think some of what an FBI observer saw take place should be condemned:
“On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18–24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold. . . . On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor.”
Chaining someone in a fetal position and leaving him that way for 18 to 24 hours in his own urine and feces is, I would submit, crossing over the line.
The challenge is to find a way to condemn this extreme without faulting the entire interrogation process.
June 17th, 2005 at 1:51 pm
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June 18th, 2005 at 1:16 am
As a vet who served in the middle east for over a year back in the 60’s, I can tell you that the average guy over there wore very baggy britches we use to call “seven day shi.ers” because of what they could possible hold and because of their smell. When we left, we burned our clothes because you would never get the smell out of them. Going 24 hours in feces and urine would seem to be normal life for them. As to turning the air conditioning off, how many had air conditioning before? By the way, it is about 30 degrees cooler in Gitmo than Iraq where our troops are working today to rid the world of these nuts.
My only sympathy comes in having to listen to loud rap music but they did not seem to mind waking everyone up with wailing over loud speakers from their mosques which was like fingernails on a chalkboard.
Durbin needs to go for his stupid statements which will be used to aid the enemy in time of war.
June 18th, 2005 at 8:07 am
Dawn Patrol
Iraq The poor prisoners at GITMO [From My Position - in Iraq] The prisoners at GITMO. How dare they treat them that way. A few facts, to put it into perspective. I don’t have a toilet in my room. Last…
June 18th, 2005 at 1:48 pm
Fisking the Anchoress
Or Comparisons on the Same Page From the Anchoress I went to Malkins and then to this piece: We Are Our History — Don’t Forget It “Not knowing history is worse than ignorance of math, literature or almost anything else….
June 19th, 2005 at 12:54 pm
Have You no Sense of Decency, Sir, at Long Last?1
Moonbats will be Moonbats–normally safely ignored. Not so Senate Dems’ #2 man–I share the widespread “outrage” and disgust over Senator Dick Durbin (D-Ill) drinking the “BusHitler” Kool Aid.