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July 8, 2005the dark, lamentable catalogue…“We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind, We have before us many, many long months of struggle and of suffering. You ask, what is our policy? I will say: It is to wage war, by sea, land and air, with all our might and with all the strength that God can give us: to wage war against a monstrous tyranny, never surpassed in the dark, lamentable catalogue of human crime. That is our policy. You ask: what is our aim? I can answer in one word: Victory - victory - at all costs, victory, in spite of all terror, victory, however long and hard the road may be; for without victory, there is no survival.”- Winston Churchill, May 1940 Perhaps if, in the 1970’s, (when Islamofascists took and held hostages for 444 days) Churchill’s policy had become our policy, 3000 Americans would not have been killed on 9/11, Bali would not have exploded, Spain would not have capitulated and England would not today be in mourning. Perhaps if, in the 1980’s, (when Islamofascists had bombed soldiers barracks in Lebanon and began calling for holy war) Churchill’s policy had become our policy, 3000 Americans would not have been killed on 9/11, Bali would not have exploded, Spain would not have capitulated and England would not today be in mourning. Perhaps if, in the 1990’s, (when Islamofascists had bombed the WTC, then the Khobar Towers, then the US Embassies in Nairobi, then the USS Cole - among other worldwide bombings) Churchill’s policy had become our policy, 3000 Americans would not have been killed on 9/11, Bali would not have exploded, Spain would not have capitulated and England would not today be in morning. Churchill’s necessary policy of 1940 is the necessary policy of today. Fighting against an enemy so cowardly they refuse to wear a uniform, so bereft of shame that they revel in the shedding of innocent blood, there can be no other policy but war and victory. AlQ has stated that it attacked the UK because of its involvement in Iraq. It does not explain what were its reasons for all of those attacks before we invaded Iraq. Spain pulled out…they got attacked again, anyway. Terrorism did not begin with the presidency of George W. Bush and the invasion of Iraq, no matter how much Barbara Boxer and Al Franken would like us to believe it. Christopher Hitchens, among others, knows better. It is ludicrous to try and reduce this to Iraq. Europe is steadily becoming a part of the civil war that is roiling the Islamic world, and it will require all our cultural ingenuity to ensure that the criminals who shattered London’s peace at rush hour this morning are not the ones who dictate the pace and rhythm of events from now on. Amir Taheri knows better, too. But sorry, old chaps, you are dealing with an enemy that does not want anything specific, and cannot be talked back into reason through anger management or round-table discussions. Or, rather, this enemy does want something specific: to take full control of your lives, dictate every single move you make round the clock and, if you dare resist, he will feel it his divine duty to kill you. Terrorism did not begin with and will not end with the presidency of George W. Bush…it may not end in our lifetime. But our enemies would as soon kill us as look at us and if they could slaughter 38,000 instead of 38, they would do so with relish. An enemy that looks only to kill the infidel or die trying is an enemy that will only be defeated if they are convinced that they will never win. And if the cultures that produce these enemies can get a sense of hope that they are not damned to lifetimes under religious or secular tyranny, perhaps they will stop producing them. If there are other solutions out there, real, credible solutions and not mere carping and politicizing…then it is time to have them heard. http://theanchoressonline.com/2005/07/08/the-dark-lamentable-catalogue/trackback/ 65 Responses to “the dark, lamentable catalogue…” |
July 8th, 2005 at 1:02 am
Now Now Madame: If we had just elected John Kerry last fall this would not have happened. All of these homicidal fanatics would have submitted their issues to the incorruptible United Nations and we would not have to deal with Bush’s bloodthirsty war for oil.
July 8th, 2005 at 1:08 am
Trackback
July 8th, 2005 at 3:15 am
Everything I wanted to say but did have the eloquence. But it makes me wonder why we didn’t finish this in the 1090’s.
July 8th, 2005 at 3:49 am
Wow. Wonderful. And worth pondering a spell.
I’m with ya, Skeetor. I think if Christians had acted with greater honor during the Crusades (ie with civilians through all the towns en route, etc), God would have given us the victory over those who had taken control of the Holy Land, and we could have been spared Muslim invasions of Europe, and who knows what we might be spared TODAY.
It does show how if you don’t deal with a problem thoroughly and properly and honorably, but with strength, you will just have to deal with it over and over and over through lifetimes.
The Old Testament is pretty good at testifying to this: If God said destroy that enemy, and the Israelites didn’t, you can bet your booties those enemies would crop up in succeeding generations to cause great harm.
This is an enemy we ignored for a long, long time. Biting us in the butt, now.
Mir
July 8th, 2005 at 4:35 am
Excellent analysis and roundup of worthwhile commentary. I linked to it!
July 8th, 2005 at 5:14 am
Very good Anchoress. Hillaire Belloc forsaw a clash of civilizations back in the 1930s. My fear is that one of these groups will get its hands on a small nuclear device and then God help us all.
July 8th, 2005 at 5:45 am
What happened London yesterday is a perfect example to me as to why the war in Iraq is stupid. Terrorists are everywhere. So how do we know when we’ve won the war in Irag? When they bomb London? George Bush has shown but poor leadership in the war on terrorism by going after Iraq who did not attack us and by not going after the most powerful terror group, Al-Qaida who did attack us.
July 8th, 2005 at 8:14 am
Lyle: “Terrorists are everywhere” and your solution is to do nothing. I’m baffled by your statement that we did not go after Al-Qaida. You have heard of Afghanistan I suppose. There were a lot of Al-Qaida in Afghanistan. Now not so many.
We weren’t in Iraq in October 1983 when Islamic terrorists bombed the Marine barracks in Beirut. How do you explain the reason for that terrorist attack?
July 8th, 2005 at 8:21 am
“What happened London yesterday is a perfect example to me as to why the war in Iraq is stupid.”
Funny, your post is a perfect example to me as to why you are.
All the lefties who howled about the “brutal Afghan winter”, the “graveard of empires” and Chomsky’s projected millions of dead Afghanis due to a Western-inflicted famine are now desperately trying to assume the mantle of “tough on terrorism” by saying we should have STAYED exclusively concentrated on Al Queda in Afghanistan, as if that’s the only place in the world they can be found.
Sorry, but virtually every indicator points to the Iraq strategy as correct. Those who think that they can be magically and completely protected from people who have both the desire and the means to destroy them in as large an amount as possible reveal themselves to be infantile, disingenuous, or both.
The fact that such an attack has been staved off until now is just one more indicator that we are on the right course. What’s more, the desperation revealed by the London attack, coupled with it’s relatively, thankfully, and almost miraculously low death toll, suggest that the present strategy is even more successful than I imagine its architects dared hope.
July 8th, 2005 at 8:33 am
Lyle->”George Bush has shown but poor leadership in the war on terrorism by going after Iraq who did not attack us and by not going after the most powerful terror group, Al-Qaida who did attack us.”
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First, please state each and every step in your reasoning process that leads you to conclude the US is not going after Al-Qaeda.
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Second, please state each and every step in your reasoning process that leads you to conclude that the US is so pitiful, impotent, and helpless that it is incapable of doing two things(going after Iraq and going after Al-Qaeda) simultaneously.
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I look forward to Fisking your response. Think very carefully before you hit “Send.” Be sure of your facts, and give cites: doing so will remove two grounds for ridicule.
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July 8th, 2005 at 9:15 am
Anchoress,
What a superb piece! Thank you, as always, for your
insight and eloquence.
July 8th, 2005 at 9:21 am
Hey Docob and Gator, I will save the time and answer for Lyle (taking on the persona of everyone of his ilk that I have debated on this subject since 9/11)………..Bush is a retard! Bush is a retard! Stolen 2000 election! Stolen 2000 Election! Yadda Yadda Yadda!
July 8th, 2005 at 9:30 am
-The first step is to start thinking straight.
-”To wage war by sea land and air with all our might and all our strength” Since 1945 this has meant the use of nuclear weapons. I, at least, have living memories of 1970, 1980, and 1990 and a very clear conception of what that would have meant back then.
-”there can be no other policy but war and victory” I suppose this is how Britain defeated the IRA. Where would you invade? Which government would you overthrow? What country would you defeat?
-You have plenty to choose from, all the way from Morroco to Indonesia and Uzbekistan to Nigera. And what will this do to the terrorists who are obviously living in Europe, and probably in London?
-”one more indicator that we are on the right course. What’s more, the desperation revealed by the London attack…” Funny, isn’t it, how terrorists are always “desperate” after they successfully perpetuate some outrage. We always seem to be inches away from “victory” with our enemies in their “last theroes”, as the Vice President would have it, the more people they successfully kill.
-As in the “ten step” program, the first step to solutions is to admit that what we are currently doing is disfunctional, and that matters require a little more hard thinking and a little less pointless military activity with no clear or serious goal.
-Military action makes us feel good rather than think straight. That is why it is so addictive to so many. From feeling good we neglect the most obvious security and safety steps.
-The principles our enemies act on are clear: attack where we are not guarding, and where the maximum casualties will occur.
-If we stop ranting about “Islamofacists” and start thinking about where that might be, some solutions are obvious.
-I’ll give you a hint: chemical plants near large American cities. Try tracking the news sometime about WHY we are not securing them, and you will see that this IS a political and not a security problem. Pointing this out is not carping.
-Finally, the one sure way to take control of anything is to take control of where its money comes from. Terrorism requires just as much money as anything else, and money can always be traced, if we have the will to do it.
-The surest solution, I think, would be to demand total transparency to our intelligence and security agencies of all recorded financial transactions.
-But, as a little reading will also show, this is also a political problem, and those who would oppose it most are largely not terrorists.
July 8th, 2005 at 11:10 am
Fish. Barrel. Smoking gun.
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Joseph Marshall (above) says:
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”To wage war by sea land and air with all our might and all our strength” Since 1945 this has meant the use of nuclear weapons.”
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[RJ] Apparently, JM believes that we cannot fight with all our might and all our strength, unless we also use every weapon at our disposal. Using JM’s reasoning, when liberals declare “War on Pollution” (or whatever liberals are declaring war on that particular day, which may be anything (except, of course, Islamofascists who have declared war on us)), we must necessarily drop hydrogen bombs on every person, place, or thing that pollutes. Get a sense of proportion, JM. Also, read about “rhetorical devices.” Sheesh.
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“There can be no other policy but war and victory.”
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[RJ] Well, I suppose we could try appeasement. It has a history of working soooo well. An alternative history, of course, but….
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“I suppose this is how Britain defeated the IRA.”
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[RJ] The goals of the IRA were not to “Kill All Infidels And Impose An Islamic World-State.” If the goal of the IRA had been to do so, and the IRA had actually acted to further that goal, and the IRA would absolutely not be deterred from that goal, what would an appropriate response have been? To let them? To ask them not to (remember–they won’t be deterred)? To try to understand?
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“Military action makes us feel good rather than think straight.”
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[RJ] No, military action does not make us feel good (and I speak as a paratrooper and as a father who has a son serving as a Second Lieutenant in the U.S. Army). It does, however, kill people who would kill us. It is not a perfect solution. It is not the only action we need to take. But it is one that we must take.
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[RJ] I have two daughters. One is 7, the other 3. The 7-year-old loves to read. For that–for a girl reading–they would like to kill me and kill her. I have no problem fighting a war against people like that. I do have a problem with appeasing them (”Well, you can’t kill us, but how about if you put out her eyes and cut out my tongue, and we’ll call it even?”).
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“From feeling good we neglect the most obvious security and safety steps.”
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[RJ] Such as? Guarding all potential targets? C’mon, Anchoress asked for constructive solutions. Tell us yours. Don’t give us generalities: be specific.
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“Finally, the one sure way to take control of anything is to take control of where its money comes from.”
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[RJ] Great idea! Brilliant! If only the U.S. and other governments could cut off the funding that Islamic “charity” fronts funnel to terrorists…oh, wait. We’re doing that.
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“The surest solution, I think, would be to demand total transparency to our intelligence and security agencies of all recorded financial transactions.”
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[RJ] The left won’t let the military get information from terrorists by making them stand in the hot sun for two hours (the “Disney World Gambit”). Yeah, I can just see Ted Drunkennedy getting behind a law that lets the federal government examine the sale of your car.
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LOL
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July 8th, 2005 at 12:04 pm
Friday London Updates
I’ll add other updates later but for now I’m using Memeorandum and a couple of other sources to compile an update of news articles and blog posts from today. News articles/Editorials: NRO AP Financial Times CNN TCS The Telegraph WSJ…
July 8th, 2005 at 12:52 pm
Ceterum censeo Mecca delenda est
July 8th, 2005 at 12:59 pm
Wow. Advocating genocide. Oh and don’t tell me that’s not what “should have finished this in the 1090’s” means.
Here’s a quaint idea. It doesn’t have the excitement of the total war you advocate, but we could give it a try.
Why don’t we pull every one of our bases out of the Middle East. Every soldier, sailor, airman, and marine. Every ship out of the gulf. Stop giving money and weapons to Israel, and then watch how quickly terrorism stops.
Somwhere along the way America decided it was our divine right to tell other nations what to do. One colonial power after another has had their boot on the Middle East for a century now. When they actually dare to fight back, well, we need to wipe them out.
You are playing you programmed roles perfectly. The Germans who lived in 1930’s had a tough time explaining to their grandchildren what they were responsible for. Will you?
July 8th, 2005 at 1:36 pm
Nicely spoken. We all are fighting on this one because the terrorists sure think they are clever. What smart people to hurt and kill men, women, and even CHILDREN in the recent London bomb blasts. Now, world citizens will surely say, “Okay, we give up, come control our lives with your ideologies.” Right? The problem with the leadership at al-Qaeda is that they haven’t figured out that people have no love for killers. Their point of view will only attract the very young and impressionable or the very old and desperate. They miss the largest demographic- law abiding citizens who want peace. If it’s the masses a group wants to affect, do something absolutely worthwhile and positive with the resources. Win hearts. The world may be talking about al-Qaeda , but it’s not in love with it and the goods it’s selling. Without winning hearts, MommyCool.com notes the change al-Qaeda hopes for will always be shallow.
July 8th, 2005 at 1:49 pm
MK-”Why don’t we pull every one of our bases out of the Middle East. Every soldier, sailor, airman, and marine. Every ship out of the gulf….and then watch how quickly terrorism stops.”
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[RJ] According to MK, the root cause of terrorism is resistance to terrorism. Ummm…..MK, you might want to refine that theory a bit.
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MK->”Why don’t we…Stop giving money and weapons to Israel, and then watch how quickly terrorism stops.”
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[RJ] Really? If we stop giving Israel aid, terrorism will stop? Including terrorism in Israel?
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Oh, you mean all 6.3 million of them would be killed, but that’s okay.
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Not while I can still draw breath.
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MK->”Somwhere along the way America decided it was our divine right to tell other nations what to do.”
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[RJ] As opposed to MK, who has decided it is better to have Islamofascists telling US what to do.
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My friend, as Samuel Adams said:
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“Contemplate the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and then say, ‘What should be the reward of such sacrifices?’ … If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animating contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
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July 8th, 2005 at 2:45 pm
Woh. Lots of good comments here!
What I want to know is, when are the terrorists going to open their eyes? They’re trying to invoke terror; what they’re accomplishing is the exact opposite. People are not afraid of them; people are getting angrier and angrier. Right now there is a political debate going on about whether or not the war in Iraq is right or wrong. So what’s new? Surprise! Such a debate was even going on during World War II! Unbelievable as it seems, there were those that felt what happened in Europe and the South Pacific was none of our business, EVEN AFTER THE BOMBING OF PEARL HARBOR! But wiser heads prevailed.
Whatever the terrorists’ goal is—if they even have one—they’re going to be stopped. The rest of the world is only going to put up with them for so long. Nations that find them hiding in their dark corners will root them out and bring them to justice, and nations that harbor them will find themselves under attack, verbally for certain, and very likely militarily.
To change the subject only slightly, here’s some food for thought. We’ve all seen what fuel prices have been doing. Who are most of the OPEC nations? Maybe I’m overreacting, but I tend to doubt it. On the one hand, OPEC is certainly milking this situation for all it’s worth; on the other, how do we know that they aren’t punishing the rest of the world for daring to defy the Moslems’ holy war?
July 8th, 2005 at 3:26 pm
No, I don’t hate the islamassholes anymore than I hate rats or sewer backups. They’ve been quite clear and consistent in their behavior for going on 1500 years now. I reserve my hate for the people who won’t resist them. It’s like trying to fight while handcuffed to a bloated corpse.
July 8th, 2005 at 3:49 pm
“Why don’t we pull every one of our bases out of the Middle East. Every soldier, sailor, airman, and marine. Every ship out of the gulf. Stop giving money and weapons to Israel, and then watch how quickly terrorism stops.”
BZZZZZZZZT! So close, though. Only one word wrong. Change the last word from “stops” to “accelerates”, and you’re spot on!
July 8th, 2005 at 3:49 pm
More on London
The Anchoress says “Churchills necessary policy of 1940 is the necessary policy of today.” She has a great quote that Winston Churchill delivered in May 1940:
We have before us an ordeal of the most grievous kind, We have before us many, many l…
July 8th, 2005 at 4:19 pm
MK-”Why don’t we pull every one of our bases out of the Middle East. Every soldier, sailor, airman, and marine. Every ship out of the gulf…and then watch how quickly terrorism stops.”
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[RJ] I have really had my share of fun with MK (above), so I should quit…but I won’t. I hope Anchoress doesn’t give me a penalty for face masking, piling on, and unnecessary roughness….
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But here goes:
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MK, the Islamofascists have declared war on us for a number of reasons. Two of the stated ones are: (i) the Crusades; and (ii) their loss of their Andalusian homeland.
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These are THEIR words. Not mine. Not George Bush’s. Not Tony Blair’s. This did not come from Fox News. Not from Free Republic. It came from THEM.
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Are you saying that they are lying?
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Are you saying, “Naw, they don’t really mean it when they say they are going to war in revenge for the Crusades and al-Andalus.”
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Are you apologizing for them? Ae you saying, “Look, these are little ignorant brown people. They don’t know any better.”
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Given that they say they are going to war in revenge for the Crusades and Andalusia, please state each and every reason why we should not believe them.
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As always, think before you hit “Send.” Ridiculing you is an amusing but time-consuming habit. Help me quit.
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July 8th, 2005 at 4:21 pm
I guess pulling every soldier out of the middle east and money from Israel is a good thing, but only if you see the genocide of Israelis as a good thing. I don’t.
July 8th, 2005 at 4:51 pm
March 1997-Osama Bin Laden
“We declared jihad against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal whether directly or through its support of the Israeli occupation.”
August 1996 Osama Bin Laden
“Muslims burn with anger at America. For its own good, America should leave [Saudi Arabia.] … There is no more important duty than pushing the American enemy out of the holy land. … The presence of the USA Crusader military forces on land, sea and air of the states of the Islamic Gulf is the greatest danger threatening the largest oil reserve in the world. The existence of these forces in the area will provoke the people of the country and induces aggression on their religion, feelings and prides and pushes them to take up armed struggle against the invaders occupying the land. … Due to the imbalance of power between our armed forces and the enemy forces, a suitable means of fighting must be adopted, i.e. using fast-moving, light forces that work under complete secrecy. In other words, to initiate a guerrilla war, where the sons of the nation, and not the military forces, take part in it.”
August 1998 Osama Bin Laden
“As for their accusations of terrorizing the innocent, the children, and the women, these are in the category of ‘accusing others with their own affliction in order to fool the masses.’ The evidence overwhelmingly shows America and Israel killing the weaker men, women and children in the Muslim world and elsewhere. A few examples of this are seen in the recent Qana massacre in Lebanon, and the death of more than 600,000 Iraqi children because of the shortage of food and medicine which resulted from the boycotts and sanctions against the Muslim Iraqi people, also their withholding of arms from the Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina leaving them prey to the Christian Serbians who massacred and raped in a manner not seen in contemporary history. Not to forget the dropping of the H-bombs on cities with their entire populations of children, elderly, and women, on purpose, and in a premeditated manner as was the case with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.”
As I said, many of you are wonderfull examples of propaganda working on weak minds. Go ahead and believe that this the “brave and noble” U.S. against those “evil Muslims” or a Gator laughingly calls them “Islamofascists”.
Go ahead and believe this isn’t about justice denied. Until you understand where the rage comes from and take steps to deal with it, you will continue to be targets.
July 8th, 2005 at 4:55 pm
cranky said “I’m baffled by your statement that we did not go after Al-Qaida. You have heard of Afghanistan I suppose. There were a lot of Al-Qaida in Afghanistan. Now not so many.”
I didn’t say we didn’t go after Al-Qaeda. I said, we should have made Al-Qaeder priority number one.
docob said,”Funny, your post is a perfect example to me as to why you are. All the lefties who howled about the “brutal Afghan winter”, the “graveard of empires” and Chomsky’s projected millions of dead Afghanis due to a Western-inflicted famine are now desperately trying to assume the mantle of “tough on terrorism” by saying we should have STAYED exclusively concentrated on Al Queda in Afghanistan, as if that’s the only place in the world they can be found.”
As a leftie, I never howled about it. I have supported going after Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden from the very beginning. You can howl all you want, putting Iraq ahead of Al Qaeder was stupid. And now we have the results.
“The fact that such an attack has been staved off until now is just one more indicator that we are on the right course. What’s more, the desperation revealed by the London attack, coupled with it’s relatively, thankfully, and almost miraculously low death toll, suggest that the present strategy is even more successful than I imagine its architects dared hope.”
Tell that to the Londoner’s.
RJGatorEsq said “First, please state each and every step in your reasoning process that leads you to conclude the US is not going after Al-Qaeda.”
I didn’t say we were not going after Al-Qaeder. I said Al-Qaeda should have been top priority instead of Iraq, because we are not fighting a traditional war. We are fighting an enemy with no address such as Al-Qeder.
“Second, please state each and every step in your reasoning process that leads you to conclude that the US is so pitiful, impotent, and helpless that it is incapable of doing two things(going after Iraq and going after Al-Qaeda) simultaneously.”
Going after Al-Qaeder makes since. Iraq doesn’t.
“I look forward to Fisking your response. Think very carefully before you hit “Send.” Be sure of your facts, and give cites: doing so will remove two grounds for ridicule.”
Go ahead, ridicule. I have thick skin.
Bob Diethrich said,”Hey Docob and Gator, I will save the time and answer for Lyle (taking on the persona of everyone of his ilk that I have debated on this subject since 9/11)………..Bush is a retard! Bush is a retard! Stolen 2000 election! Stolen 2000 Election! Yadda Yadda Yadda!”
Just for the record Bob, I don’t feel that way.
July 8th, 2005 at 5:26 pm
The thing with Al-Qaeda is they really don’t have a certain leader per se. Bin Laden can’t be found, nor Zarqawi so you don’t know who to appeal to.
They’re like little cancers spread out over the body and they just keep sprouting somewhere else when dealt with.
Every imam is conducting their own fatwas so there’s no telling who the real instigator is. All they know is that anyone who is not muslim is an enemy and anyone who helps the Jews are to be doubly hated.
They really should just have a closed door policy and not venture out into the world. The only problem is: most of them don’t have a country that they fully control so they can’t close any door.
July 8th, 2005 at 7:41 pm
I choose to be free over dihimmitude.
I choose to fight than to cover like the pantywaists who keep complaining.
I choose freedom over tyranny over my life and soul.
I’m with you, Gator.
Who’s with us?
July 8th, 2005 at 7:46 pm
cower, that is.
Incomptence, Dansig, is to see the threat right before your very eyes and to do nothing to counter it…
Just like your beloved Clinton Administration did (first WTC attack in 93, Somalia 93, Kenya and Tanzania 98, USS Cole 2000).
Compared to anything that the Clinton Administration did during 8 years on this issue, the Bush Administration is the equivalent of wide-horned bulls ready to attack… (with plenty of… let’s say, testosterone)… tying to fix the mess that the girly men of before did nothing to stop from happening.
July 8th, 2005 at 8:18 pm
Gosh, all of you manly men. Ready to fight them terrists. I find it hard to believe that you guys, Gator, Newton and the rest of the gung-ho have so much time to write while fighting in Iraq.
You are fighting in Iraq aren’t you?
Aren’t you?
July 8th, 2005 at 8:19 pm
Terrorism takes two forms, the nutty guy who finds that he can’t take it any more and does something violent and crazy. Such people are not stable, and they do not plan very well.
The other is a state sponsored unconventional attack. The communists suppored the Red Brigades, the Bader-Meinhof group, the Arab-Muslim Black September group. Saddam supported Al Answar, and various Arab-Palistinian terrorists. Egypt under Nassar supported various kind of fedayeen organizations in the 1950s. Libya and colonel Gaddafi used it to attack the UK before this.
Per the treaty of Westphalia, supporting attacks against a country by a third party is an act of war. Saddam supporting the first attack on the WTC was an act of war. When a head of state does that, his country legally bears the responsibility. If they don’t like that, they have to shut down the bad head of state, or face the consequences.
July 8th, 2005 at 9:27 pm
Gee MK and your point would be in asking whether GAtor and the others are currently fighting in Iraq?????? Perhaps they already served? Perhaps they are not yet 18? Perhaps they are like me who is ineligible for military service due to a medical condition (color blindness)? What is your point again in setting up this straw man?
July 8th, 2005 at 9:49 pm
MK wrote: “A few examples of this are seen in the recent Qana massacre in Lebanon, and the death of more than 600,000 Iraqi children because of the shortage of food and medicine which resulted from the boycotts and sanctions……….” HA HA HA 600K, oh yeah right! Boy funny how those uncountable figures grow each time they are mentioned. Oh yeah, Right! Three Words: “oil for food” Gee what happened to all that money and aid? Oh yeah it ended up in UN kickbacks and in the hands of French and Russian officials. Yeah, no kids died because of that!
“also their withholding of arms from the Muslims of Bosnia-Herzegovina leaving them prey to the Christian Serbians who massacred and raped in a manner not seen in contemporary history.” My friend was on the ground twice in Bosnia.protecting those Muslims as a member of the United States military. Gee the US, we hate Muslims so much we put our own troops on the ground to protect them.
“Not to forget the dropping of the H-bombs on cities with their entire populations of children, elderly, and women, on purpose, and in a premeditated manner as was the case with Hiroshima and Nagasaki.” First of all idiot, the H Bomb was developed in the fifties. They were A Bombs! Second, I reccomend you read the “Okinawa” chapter in Victor Davis Hanson’s “Ripples of Battle” and how the Japanese civilians and soldiers alike fought like wild cats to defend a rock of coral in the Pacific. Also for a first person account, you may like to talk to my Uncle who fought on Tarawa (that was another hard fought island taken during World War II; I only take time to mention that because given your ignorance of history, you probably are unaware of it)and saw the sucicidal fury bred by that Bushido death cult blended with the industrial age.
“Go ahead and believe this isn’t about justice denied. Until you understand where the rage comes from and take steps to deal with it, you will continue to be targets. ”
The “rage” my friend comes from a failed culture. Islam has been going backward since their intellectual and cultural flowering in the 9th century. They refuse to recognize the modern world and are filled with hate and jealousy. They long for the days of the Ottoman Empire, which, sorry Osama, ain’t coming back. They reject equal rights of women, the rule of law and justice. Sorry, but the Iraq war was essential whether Saddam had an ounce of poison gas or not. A working democracy must take root in the Muslim world; a country in that area must prove that they have gone beyond stoning women for appearing unveiled in public or destroying icons of other great religions. If that does not happen then the bloodshed will continue, and eventually Islam itself will join the ranks of the Carthaginians and the early humans who decided that hunting and gathering was still the way to go, instead of trying to farm.
Comment by MK ? July 8, 2005 @ 4:51 pm
July 8th, 2005 at 9:57 pm
MK->”Gosh, all of you manly men. Ready to fight them terrists. I find it hard to believe that you guys, Gator, Newton and the rest of the gung-ho have so much time to write while fighting in Iraq. You are fighting in Iraq aren’t you?”
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[RJ] On September 12, 2001, I called the Army recruiter to try to RE-join. That is “re-” as in “go back in.” I was told, very nicely, that the Army did not need 46-year-olds with one ankle held together with screws, even if the 46-year-old was a paratrooper.
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In the meantime, my son was commissioned as a Second Lieutenant in the regular Army this spring and is presently serving on active duty. He is third-generation Airborne, is Air Assault-qualified, and has volunteered for Sapper School and Ranger Training.
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Good enough for ya, MK?
__________
July 8th, 2005 at 10:04 pm
G8 Mulls Qaeda Offer to End Modern Civilization
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(2005-07-07) — Leaders of the world’s major industrialized nations, meeting in Scotland at the G8 Summit today, said they would consider al-Qaeda’s latest proposal to “end modern civilization and return to the glorious days of feudalism.”
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The al-Qaeda offer came in the form of multiple explosions during rush hour in London, drenching buses and trains with the blood of ordinary working people.
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“Modern civilization had a good long run,” said one unnamed global diplomat, “and these Qaeda chaps have made a serious proposal that one must consider. It should spark thoughtful discussion at the G8 about whether Western values have become obsolete in the face of the growing popularity of this progressive Islamic lifestyle.”
————
MK is nodding as he reads this, “Hmmm…the man has some valid points. Just what I was thinking.”
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Sorry, MK. It is satire. But it’s hard to tell these days.
__________
July 8th, 2005 at 10:09 pm
Hey Bob, in case you didn’t notice, those quotes were from Osama Bin-Laden.
I was quoting them in a no doubt wasted effort to show the confused people here that it’s not about our “freedoms” or about Muslims wanting to rule the world. I know it may come as a shock to the highly indoctrinated, but life is a bit more complex than good and evil.
Well Bob, my father served in the Navy for 22 years and he was color blind.
When I was in the military I knew quite a few guys who were color blind.
Ooops, try again to justify your non-service. I ask the question because all of you war supporters should put your money where your mouth is and join up or shut up about how necessary war is.
Unless of course they have a debilitating condition like color blindness. Or a hangnail. Or eczema.
July 8th, 2005 at 10:19 pm
Yes good enough Gator, thank you.
You are now excused from my wrath.
Ah yes satire, I have heard of this. Just not from consevatives. Refreshing.
By the way, OK the color blind thing was quite a cheap shot. I understand that there are different varieties and standards. As far as that goes enlistment rules and standards change over time.
Caught up in the joy of the fight.
Not questioning anyone’s courage.
I didn’t intend this to turn into a p****ing contest. I more than understand the anger at my position.
(MK sits and tries to go to his happy place)
July 8th, 2005 at 10:24 pm
MK: ditto. Sorry, I get caught up in the heat of it, too. The wrong thing for a Christian to do, and a flaw of mine. I used to litigate, and there is still a bad side of me that likes a fight.
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Peace?
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Cheers…past my bedtime.
____________
July 8th, 2005 at 10:30 pm
Yes, MK color blind, when you can’t tell the red wire from the blue…..BOOM!
July 8th, 2005 at 10:37 pm
Oh and MK my apologies too, I thought the quotes ended and it was commentary! (I wish Madame’s comments processor had a few more bells and whistles, like italics, and the ability to make seperate paragraphs) Oh well, sorry and good night to you as well.
July 9th, 2005 at 12:41 am
Peace. Goodnight gentlemen.
July 9th, 2005 at 3:59 am
“Wow. Advocating genocide. Oh and don’t tell me that’s not what “should have finished this in the 1090’s” means.”
I don’t know what Skeetor meant by his original comment, but nothing in it or in Mir’s concurring followup suggests approval of genocide. If MK meant that genocide was the object of the Crusaders, that simply isn’t factual. For starters, genocide is definitely not what Pope Urban II had in mind when he called the First Crusade at Clermont in 1095.
Both the existing contemporary accounts of his speech agree that he preached the First Crusade to (1) recover the Holy Sepulchre for Christianity, because Christians were being terrorized on their pilgrimages by a new group of fanatical Muslims, the Seljuk Turks; and (2) help the Byzantine Empire recover its heartland in the Anatolian plateau, which had recently been overrun by the Seljuks after the battle of Manzikert in 1071. Thus, the Crusade was conceived as a defensive response to Islamic aggression and terrorism. To these purposes, not to an invitation to genocide, his audience responded with their famous shout, “God wills it!” He said nothing about wiping out Islam. Period.
Of course, the Crusaders sometimes did some brutal things. Often people point to the massacre of some 12,000 inhabitants of Jerusalem, including most of its Muslim defenders, following its storm by the Crusaders in 1099. Appalling as this is by modern standards (though the modern world hardly seems to command much moral high ground here — Dresden, the Holocaust, the Gulag, and the Killing Fields come to mind), any historical event has to be judged in its historical context. And throughout the medieval period and into the early modern era, on both sides of the religious divide, the lives and property of the inhabitants of a city taken by storm were completely at the disposal of its conquerors. Mercy and massacre were thought equally justified. Was it a savage act? Yes. Was it unusual for its time? No.
It’s also worth noting that while one group of Crusaders was carrying out the Jerusalem massacre, another group, led by Raymond, Count of Toulouse, was letting hundreds of Muslim defenders leave in peace after surrendering their part of the city.
In fact, if we’re going to condemn the Crusaders, in fairness we ought to condemn their Islamic oppponents just as vigorously. The Seljuk conquest of Asia Minor which had led to the calling of the First Crusade had been accompanied by frightful incidents of wanton slaughter. And later in the crusading era, to cite another example, the Mameluke sultan of Egypt massacred the Christian defenders of Caesarea, Arsuf, Acre, and Safad — in the last case, after accepting the city’s surrender and promising safe conduct to its disarmed defenders. He also massacred some 60,000 Christian civilians in Cilicia.
Whatever sins the Crusaders committed, they generally behaved no worse than their opponents, and no worse than most armies of their time. It makes no more sense for today’s Muslims to harbor burning resentment of the Jerusalem massacre than it does for today’s Christians to resent the killings in Cilicia — which had been Christian far longer than Jerusalem had been Muslim.
July 9th, 2005 at 4:07 pm
At the Genoa G8,there were anti aircraft missiles sited - and maybe they were at Gleneagles. On such a critical day in US/UK/ World relations, what should have been a triumph for Tony, turned into a bloody day to remember.It is early to judge, but it increasingly appears this massive death dealing “spectaculae”, represents a total and complete failure of our security services - Coincidentally containing the world class “experts” - the ones who imagined Saddam’s fearsome but nonetheless non-existent Weapons of Mass Destruction in Iraq.
Not only do our spooks appear to be clueless about the authors of these events, their methods, their paymasters, their aims, the response is littered with (to date) all the signs of a shambles.
We now discover that;
1. The central control did not know of any bombing until 9.17 am , a delay of 28 minutes.
2. The public were being told that the cause of problems was a “power surge” which was wrong.
3. According to eye witness accounts the first rescuers in the tunnels were Underground staff equipped with torches, no safety equipment , no sensors to detect gases, biological contaminants , no protective clothing - not even first aid kits.
4. We now discover 50 hours after the incidents, that the bombs were synchronised over at most 55 seconds and not over some 45/55 minutes as has been repeatedly publicised.
5. There is no evidence from TV footage, reporting, blogs, personal contact of any fielding of any Bio / nuclear / gas testing, operators, treatment units. … or did they know they weren’t needed ?
This is a moment to seize. The Kaleidoscope has been shaken. The pieces are in flux. Soon they will settle again. Before they do, let us re-order this world around us. Tony Blair. Labour Party Conference Oct 2nd 2001
July 9th, 2005 at 7:26 pm
[...] ndfirminfaith) - MELANIE PHILLIPS: The war within the west … (melaniephillips) - ANCHORESS MUST-READ: “the dark, lamentable catalogue” … [...]
July 9th, 2005 at 8:09 pm
“Chicago political scientist Robert Pape argues in his new book, “Dying to Win,” that the vast majority of suicide bombers are protesting foreign military occupation undertaken by democratic societies where public opinion matters. He points out that there is no recorded instance of a suicide attack in Iraq in all of history until the Anglo-American conquest of that country in 2003. He might have added that neither had any bombings been undertaken elsewhere in the name of Iraq.”
Way to go Dubya!
July 9th, 2005 at 11:16 pm
If anyone would like to send a message of support to the people of Great Britain, you can find the address of the nearest British consulate in the U.S. here.
July 11th, 2005 at 9:09 am
MK: Chris Hitchens says it far better than I could:
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“We know very well what the “grievances” of the jihadists are.
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“The grievance of seeing unveiled women. The grievance of the existence, not of the State of Israel, but of the Jewish people. The grievance of the heresy of democracy, which impedes the imposition of sharia law. The grievance of a work of fiction written by an Indian living in London. The grievance of the existence of black African Muslim farmers, who won’t abandon lands in Darfur. The grievance of the existence of homosexuals. The grievance of music, and of most representational art. The grievance of the existence of Hinduism. The grievance of East Timor’s liberation from Indonesian rule. All of these have been proclaimed as a licence to kill infidels or apostates, or anyone who just gets in the way.”
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As Baldilocks sums it up so well: “You and I may not hate Islamists because they are Muslim, but you can best believe that they hate us because we are not.”
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To claim (as Robert Pape does) that “no bombings had occurred in Iraq until 2003″–so what? Battlefields move. Situations change. If the point is that the Middle East was a land of milk and honey until GWB came along–get a grip.
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You want the US to knuckle under? You want sharia law? If spineless apologizing relativists like you pervail (as it is looking like you may)–you might just get your wish.
_________________
July 11th, 2005 at 10:42 am
[...]
July 11, Feast of St. Benedict! You people leave me amazed… Listen… the dark, lamentable catalogue& [...]
July 11th, 2005 at 10:55 am
RJGatorEsq wtote:”You want the US to knuckle under? You want sharia law? If spineless apologizing relativists like you pervail (as it is looking like you may)–you might just get your wish.”
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I’m only going to speak for myself here, I don’t want the US to knuckle under to terrorist’s. Nobody wants terrorism to rule the day. The debate is how to go about it. I happen to be in the camp that believes going to Iraq was the wrong way to confront it.One thing for sure is, we are in a mess.
July 11th, 2005 at 11:31 am
Lyle->”One thing for sure is, we are in a mess.”
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We were in a mess when Islamofascists seized our embassy in Iran and held our embassy staff hostage. We just didn’t know it.
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We were in a mess when an Exocet from peace-loving Iraq blew a hole in the USS Stark. We just didn’t know it.
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We were in a mess when peace-loving Iraq invaded Kuwait and began eyeing Saudi Arabia. We just didn’t know it.
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We were in a mess when Islamofascists detonated bombs in the World Trade Center. We just didn’t know it.
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We were in a mess when Islamofascists blew up our ambassies. We just didn’t know it.
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We were in a mess when Islamofascists blew the front off Khobar Towers. We just didn’t know it.
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We were in a mess when Islamofascists blew a hole in the USS Cole. We just didn’t know it.
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We were in a mess on 9/11, and then we got the point.
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And then we started to forget it.
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Bali, Spain, and London ought to have reminded us of what we ought to have known. I don’t think they did.
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The solution of the left (including MK, and apparently you), is to withdraw, apologize, pay reparations, slink back to our shores, and hope that the Islamofascists stop attacking us out of sheer respect for our cowardice.
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Well, I think we are going to get the chance to find out if you are right.
_________________
July 11th, 2005 at 12:38 pm
Another thought for Lyle:
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Lyle->”One thing for sure is, we are in a mess.”
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What do you mean “we,” paleface?
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If you are not on the military, what “mess” are you experiencing? Watching events on TV with a remote in one hand and a Bud Lite in the other? Getting your knickers in a twist because the US, after a near-generation of taking it in the shorts, is actually fighting back? What are YOU doing that the war bears so heavily on YOU?
_________
July 11th, 2005 at 2:54 pm
This Is Our Time
The Anchoress » the dark, lamentable catalogue… Perhaps if, in the 1990’s, ……Churchill’s policy had become our policy,….. piqued my thinking. Why didn’t we? Why did it take us so long to move forward, and why are we halting yet?…
July 11th, 2005 at 4:15 pm
[...] y Depp July 11, Feast of St. Benedict! You people leave me amazed… Listen… the dark, lamentable catalogue& [...]
July 11th, 2005 at 9:49 pm
RJGatorEsq said,”The solution of the left (including MK, and apparently you), is to withdraw, apologize, pay reparations, slink back to our shores, and hope that the Islamofascists stop attacking us out of sheer respect for our cowardice.”
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If you had looked a little closer you would have seen that I said,”I don’t want the US to knuckle under to terrorist’s.”
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RJGatorEsq. said,”What do you mean “we,” paleface?”
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I mean “we” as in Americans. You aren’t of those right winger’s who thinks only right winger’s are Americans are you?
July 12th, 2005 at 7:59 am
Lyle->”If you had looked a little closer you would have seen that I said,”I don’t want the US to knuckle under to terrorist’s.””
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[RJ] Sort of. You SAID that, but you lost me at the implied “but….”
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Lyle->”RJGatorEsq. said,”What do you mean “we,” paleface?” I mean “we” as in Americans. You aren’t of those right winger’s who thinks only right winger’s are Americans are you?”
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[RJ] Sort of; I think many left-wingers are not. I don’t think that being born here confers “American” on you. As the quote from Samuel Adams (post 19) says, “may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
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However, that is beside the point.
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I will try to be more clear.
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The biggest complainers I hear are those who sit in front of their TV with a remote in one hand and a beer in the other and whine about how bad things are.
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A group which, I gather, includes you: I asked how the GWOT has affected YOU. Not the soldiers: YOU. I did not get an answer. Intended insults, yes. An answer, no.
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So, I infer that the war has not affected you. No “mess” affects you. You want to vent. Well, enjoy. Far better men and women than you are giving you that right–until, of course, your position wins.
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When your position wins, we bring the troops home. We apologize to the Islamists. We pay reparations. We hope the Islamists will stop attacking us out of sheer respect for our cowardice and our weakness.
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You had better hope your position is right, because you know what? You will win. The West lacks the will to fight back. The Islamists know it. Much of the world knows it, and is getting out of the way.
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What is the evidence? Look in the mirror. Look at the posts by MK. Listen to Ted Drunkennedy, Howard Dean, Nancy Pelosi, and Harry Reid. You will win.
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So, you had better be right: the consequences if you are wrong are too horrendous to imagine.
_________________
July 12th, 2005 at 12:28 pm
The London bombings did not happen so much because the US, Britain, and others are in Iraq, but because Spain is no longer in Iraq.
Sure, the terrorist do/will attack for (as they see it) revenge, punishment, or public relations. Given an opportunity, they might strike at political leadership or military targets. But for now, they appear to be concentrating their limited resources on inducing appeasement.
July 12th, 2005 at 5:16 pm
Ghost Dansing’s post is little more than a cut-an-paste rant from a member of the retired/fired brass. Take what retired/fired brass tells you with a grain of salt. There was a retired/fired Colonel, David Hackworth, who never had a decent word to say about civilian control of the military. He would often start sentences with the words, “If they had only [had the good sense to have] asked me…” Gosh, Colonel, are you a little bitter?
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How bitter was he? So bitter that Soldier of Fortune magazine fired him from its editorial staff.
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With respect to Ghost Dansing’s points, they can be distilled to two:
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1. We did not go in with enough troops; and
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2. Saddam was already in trouble because of the sanctions.
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With respect to Point 1, well, as Sec. Rumsfeld said, you go in with the military you have, not the military you want. The troops we went in with sure kicked the snot out of Saddam, and they did it so fast they actually had to wait for the supply chain to catch up. So Point 1 is lame.
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With respect to Point 2, Saddam was looting oil-for-food money and building new palaces as Coalition troops were mobilizing. So, yeah, he was crumbling all right (rolling eyes).
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Something Ghost Dansing did not address is this: Is there a benefit to establishing stable capitalist democratic governments in the Middle East?
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Absolutely. Capitalist democracies rarely make war on one another. Freedom is a good thing. Peace and freedom might not be the kinds of things Ghost Dansing and a lot of the left can’t get behind, but that is not really a new look for the people who supported–and still support–Communist dictators from Stalin to Ortega to Castro.
_____________
July 13th, 2005 at 5:44 am
Lyle->”If you had looked a little closer you would have seen that I said,”I don’t want the US to knuckle under to terrorist’s.””
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[RJ] Sort of. You SAID that, but you lost me at the implied “but….
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Lyle0There was no but, just you reading into somehting that was not there.
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Lyle]You aren’t of those right winger’s who thinks only right winger’s are Americans are you?”
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[RJ] Sort of; I think many left-wingers are not. I don’t think that being born here confers “American” on you.
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Lyle]That’s quite possible. If you were to tally up the list you would find that on the “un-american” list would have an equal amount of right winger’s.
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RJ]The biggest complainers I hear are those who sit in front of their TV with a remote in one hand and a beer in the other and whine about how bad things are.
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Lyle]That wouldn’t be me. I don’t have a television.
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RJ]A group which, I gather, includes you: I asked how the GWOT has affected YOU. Not the soldiers: YOU. I did not get an answer. Intended insults, yes. An answer, no
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Lyle]There were no intended insults from me. But I find it interested that you of all people would bring it up. I can’t answer a question that I don’t know what your asking. Try again.
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RJ]So, I infer that the war has not affected you. No “mess” affects you. You want to vent. Well, enjoy. Far better men and women than you are giving you that right–until, of course, your position wins.
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Lyle]Funny how you suggested that I had implied an insult to you,yet you come right out and insult.And on top of that you don’t even get it. You just assume which is not necessarilly knowing.
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RJ]When your position wins, we bring the troops home. We apologize to the Islamists. We pay reparations. We hope the Islamists will stop attacking us out of sheer respect for our cowardice and our weakness.
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Lyle]A perfect example of you assuming instead of knowing my position.It is not my position.
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RJ]So, you had better be right: the consequences if you are wrong are too horrendous to imagine
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Lyle]RJ, I don’t pretend to be right. I only know what I see, which I don’t confuse with being right. The terrorism fight is already horrendous.The debate is how we are going to stop terrorism.
July 13th, 2005 at 3:12 pm
Lyle->”The debate is how we are going to stop terrorism.”
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[RJ] Well, we’d all love to hear your plan.
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Cheers.
___________
July 14th, 2005 at 5:12 am
RJ, I’m just a dumb farmer, I milk cows for a living
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Cheers to you.
July 15th, 2005 at 4:19 am
[...] This is pretty funny - Ms Musings points to an article in the Chicago Tribune which quotes little ol’ me, and my piece on the London attack. [...]
July 19th, 2005 at 4:32 am
[...] ANCHORESS: “the dark, lamentable catalogue” …. (theanchoressonline) [...]
July 22nd, 2005 at 4:03 pm
“There is a war going on, and words are as powerful as weapons”
The spar and parry of fencing are a classic metaphor for the Darwinian struggle between women and men. (Unidentified engraving from Iothene Experimental Archaeology, "Women as Warriors in the 19th Century")"You’re beautiful when you’r…
July 6th, 2006 at 8:22 pm
My Wife Flew off with Bono and Branson; Bombed in London 7.7.05
On the plane with Richard Branson Following is an edited cross post from Charmaine’s Reasoned Audacity, July 1 - 7, 2005. A year ago, Charmaine calls early morning from Edinburgh. “I’m having trouble flying into London,” she says. I’m…