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May 17, 2007Immigration bill is a startLongtime readers know that I am no “hard-liner” on immigration. I lost lots of readers (and got “de-linked by some bloggers) because I have never been able to hold with the “ship ‘em all back” idea that engages some conservatives. Probably that’s because deep down, I’m still more of a “classical liberal” than a “conservative,” although those who identify themselves as “liberal” would strongly disagree. Whatever…the truth is that “liberal” does not mean the same thing today that it meant when I was coming up. Anyway, I think this immigration bill is a start. I absolutely agree with Ed Morrissey when he writes: As I wrote yesterday, this is about as good as we will get in this Congress. In fact, the Democrats probably had enough votes to pass something much more like a wide-open amnesty, given a few Republican votes in support of that and the relaxed attitude of the White House on immigration reform. The GOP did a pretty good job of holding the line and forcing the Democrats to include the border-first triggers, the reduction of the family interest, and the rest of what Kyl managed to retain. It’s not great, and it’s not even very good. It’s not bad, though… I think it takes more wisdom than any of us have, to know what is absolutely “the best” solution…but we need to start somewhere. This is a start. And to be honest, I’m much more concerned about the house passing a huge tax increase, a story that’s flying under the radar because the right ’sphere is all about the immigration bill, today. Ronald Reagan used to say that you argued for what you could get, even if it was 60% of what you wanted…then you’d fight for the rest later - (paraphrased) cited here. The truth is, the hard-liners were never going to get what they wanted, and some steps finally need to be taken. One step would be revamping our choked INS, which doesn’t really work, anymore. For thirty years the immigration situation has been kicked down the road from one president to another. For most of that time, little was even said about it. Since 9/11 some folks have been demanding action but rejecting anything but the most extreme response. Lost in all of this is the fact that many, many folks here illegally came legally and then for one reason or another remained past their date. Lots of them have worked hard, lived responsibly and built lives and families here. Their humanity and ours demands that we find a way to make them productive citizens without “shipping them back” and disrupting whole societies. And all those cursing President Bush for it - and I know you’re hopping mad - well, it’s too bad, but as I wrote here: It does not surprise me that he is a Christian man living a creed before he is a President, that he is a President before he is a Conservative. It seems to me precisely the right order of things. Yeah, I know - some of you will hate me for it; some of you will insist that my being Catholic is at the bottom of my thinking (and it probably is - but not for the “asses in the pew, money in the basket” reason you suggest.) I’ve already gotten those emails, by the way, so you needn’t resend them. I recall this post of mine, in particular, bringing lots of heat my way - here’s an excerpt: Aside from the legal and moral ramifications of trying to “round them all up -” I got out of the car thinking, are they forgetting that we are talking about human beings, here? Many of whom have been here for years, initially through legal means, and who have created lives? People with lives and families who - like how they got here or not - are HERE and are mostly contributing to society in positive ways? Honestly, the folks on the radio sounded extremely narrow and over-the-top. The humanity of the illegals seemed as unmentionable to them as the humanity of a baby-in-utero is to a feminist. When this issue was hot last summer, I was writing about it quite a bit, and mostly repeating myself while others repeated back “you’re wrong, you’re so wrong,” to me. But I still feel the way I felt then, so I guess we’re still at odds. In any case, rather than create a million links, I’ll just direct you to that category in my archives. There is, of course, posting going on all over the ’sphere. I’m sure you can hit just about any site and find opinions. I will remind some of the conservatives who insisted on an “all or nothing, our way or the highway” immigration bill, or that “doing nothing” would be preferable to not getting your way, well…”doing nothing” is NOT an option - it never was - and all your “sitting out” the election to “teach a lesson” to the GOP while waiting around for ideological purity has done is put you in a very difficult minority. “Lose in ‘06 to win in ‘08″ sounded a stinker of a plan back then. It has proved to be a stinker of a plan, I think. Keslersays, Good Bill, Questionable Enforcement…and there is some interesting reading here, in the comments section below. http://theanchoressonline.com/2007/05/17/immigration-bill-is-a-start/trackback/ 21 Responses to “Immigration bill is a start” |
May 17th, 2007 at 4:01 pm
I am not at all happy about the immigration bill because it IS amnesty. On the other hand, it does have some provisions that I do like and would we have gotten the border security measures, pathetic though they may be, without the amnesty? Probably not.
Hardcore conservatives are just as delusional as hardcore liberals - they want everything their way or no way at all and that’s just silly and bratlike behavior. You can’t always get what you want and that’s something that GROWN-UPS realize.
I would like to see more scrutiny of those who are here; more accountability of the illegals for the all-too-frequent drunk-driving arrests (an 8-year-old boy was killed this week by a drunken illegal) and alcohol-related deaths. I think that anyone here illegally SHOULD be deported if they cause the death of an American citizen while drunk or in any other kind of criminal enterprise. In other words, if we are giving them the GIFT of a path to citizenship, they must be made to accept some responsibility for themselves and their lives - INCLUDING learning English.
May 17th, 2007 at 4:31 pm
greetings!
one thing no one talks about - but which seems important to me - is streamlining the process of becoming a citizen. We put unnecessary paperwork and beaurocratic obstacles in front of prospective citizens.
May 17th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
Anchoress, I agree with everything you said. So don’t feel alone. In truth I don’t know what it is some of these people want. If you say it is impossible to ship all these people out, they say they don’t want to do that…and yet they say they want all the laws enforced without dealing with what that means or if it is even possible at this point. The hardliners are starting to sound like demagogues.
This bill might be the best they can get right now, and if this issue is as important as they claim it is…then we should try to come up with a rational alternative instead of just ranting and raving month after month year after year.
May 17th, 2007 at 4:45 pm
Gj:
Criminal activity is not the issue, if these people break laws they should be in jail or deported…who would say otherwise. BTW, I had a relative who was killed by a drunk driver born right here in the US…believe it or not it is no less of a loss when the driver is American.
May 17th, 2007 at 5:12 pm
This is such a touchy subject, one one which I am truly torn. For a very long time I have been for immigration and letting those who have been here a long time citizens, but the events of the last 6 months have me questioning the sanity of it all. I live in the south west, the front lines so to speak, and it is getting real ugly,real fast here. We are being overrun by illegals who do not want to become citizens, don’t care about our laws or our lives. They are of the mindset that this is their land and we are squatters and they are going to take it all back and they mean it. They move in an area and trash it, they do not have the least bit of respect for anything. They urinate and poop right on the sidewalk in broad daylight on the main city streets, I’ve seen it so many times in the last few months I’ve lost count. If you are alone walking down what used to be a safe street to shop, they harrass you and make crude gestures at you. I was driving down a busy downtown street on my way to pick up some things that I needed, from the only store that sells it in the area, and a gun fight breaks out between the two cars just 10 feet in front of me. they were shooting like maniacs, I just barley missed being shot. The Cops were there pretty fast as their outpost was just blocks away, The shooters were all illegals,and they laughed at getting caught, they said they would be out in a few hours and they were! They come into the schools and refuse to learn English, they demand and get Spanish speaking classes, they do not want to assimilate into our society, they wish to remain Mexican.
They DEMAND, not ask, DEMAND the same rights as citizens but are not willing to share any responsibility for said citizenship. and don’t even get me started on the medical care they get, or the welfare or the education benefits. It is truly scary I feel like a stranger in my own country sometimes.
If we could sort out those who were the good and those who are a drag on our society I would say yes to this bill, but as to my own personal experiences as of late I say round them all up and sort it our there, let the good ones back and keep the creeps out. Yes we are talking about human beings and I am not without compassion for some of them, but when my safety and the safety of my family, friends and neighbors are at stake I put my foot down. If they want to be treated with respect the should show respect for our laws and our culture and our Country, It is a two way street follow the rules and we’ll get along fine, come in and DEMAND special treatment and there will be trouble.
May 17th, 2007 at 7:46 pm
Senate Republicans Cave On Immigration (Updated And bumped)…
Again, I would have no problem with this IF the border were secured. But since it’s not, and mos…
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May 17th, 2007 at 8:08 pm
Anchoress, you’re right. These people are human beings. Unfortunately, as a perfunctory into MECHA or the NCLR will reveal, they do not consider those of us who were already here to be human beings; they think, in fact, that they have a better claim on southwestern America than the Americans do. And I live in Arizona; I’ve seen what many Mexicans think of us.
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And besides, what seems to be bugging most of our fellow conservatives about the proposed bill is that it doesn’t really address the southern border as a security risk. Given what we know about the Fort Dix Six and the 9/11 hijackers (they didn’t all sneak in through Canada, after all), this attempt by the GOP to rush a half-assed border-security measure by Us The Constituency with the rationale of its being “better than nothing” strikes us as the height of naiveté.
May 17th, 2007 at 8:20 pm
Anchoress, you’re right. These people are human beings. Unfortunately, as a perfunctory into MECHA or the NCLR will reveal, they do not consider those of us who were already here to be human beings; they think, in fact, that they have a better claim on southwestern America than the Americans do. And I live in Arizona; I’ve seen what many Mexicans think of us.
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And besides, what seems to be bugging most of our fellow conservatives about the proposed bill is that it doesn’t really address the southern border as a security risk. Given what we know about the Fort Dix Six and the 9/11 hijackers (they didn’t all sneak in through Canada, after all), this attempt by the GOP to rush a half-@$$ed border-security measure by Us The Constituency with the rationale of its being “better than nothing” strikes me as the height of naiveté.
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(my apologies if this turns into a double post…)
May 17th, 2007 at 9:25 pm
The Anchoress wrote…” I got out of the car thinking, are they forgetting that we are talking about human beings, here?”
My problem with illegal immigration, in addition to the illegal part, is that we have forgotten that we are talking about human beings, the Americans. My area of the country, Orange County, California, has been particularly hard hit by millions of illegal immigrants. They have overcrowded our schools to the point that my dear wife felt that homeschooling was the only option for our children. They have overcrowded the emergency rooms to the point that my one year old grandson had to wait 2 hours to see a doctor. Almost everyone in my family has been in a hit and run car accident involving people of “Hispanic” origin. My wife shuddered until the day she died every time she heard the squeal of brakes. The man that hit her threw a forged drivers license through he window, and fled, leaving her to be pried out by the jaws of life half an hour later. My parish was 90% white just 30 years ago, and now my “English Speaking Community” is down to 10%. At 51, I am one of the youngest men in our Knights of Columbus Council, and the language and cultural barriers make it very hard for us to attract new members. My world has been changed for the worse by illegal activity that the “culture of corruption” tolerates for some reason. I live four miles away from where I was born but I don’t have a single friend left who lives between my house and my fathers. I know the illegal immigrants just want a better life for their families, but they are getting that better life at my expense, and no one seems to care about the Americans who are left when the illegal immigrants take over. One brother and two sisters have already left the state. When our parents die, the rest of us will probably follow, leaving behind nothing but memories of what we had. When a community is destroyed by war or famine, people try to help. But when a community is destroyed by illegal immigration, most people call you a racist just for bringing up the subject.
We have hosted a party on the Fourth of July for 20 years, and always go door to door the week before, inviting everyone to stop by and say hello. At most of the houses the children translate what we are saying for the parents, but they never show up at the party. Over the years the people who come travel from farther and farther away, and now the last of the regular attending families within walking distance is moving away. Our neighborhood used to be “culturally diverse”, and now it is a single culture. The last house around that still flies the flag on the 4th of July. And in 20 years only two of the Hispanic families have invited us to their house in return, and both of those families moved out years ago. We are outsiders in our own neighborhood.
If all of what has happened to my family was done by people who were obeying the law, it would be hard to deal with the change. The fact that it was done by millions of people breaking the law over generations of time, and no one cared enough about us to stop it, is almost to much for me to take.
May 18th, 2007 at 12:27 am
I know there are a lot of terrible stories out there and real concerns of folks - I also know there are a lot of illegal immigrants who do not behave that way. Just as our soldiers all get a bad rap when some go bad (as do all of our priests suffer for the bad ones) these stories make the whole issue more difficult for everyone.
‘
But if people had been addressing immigration properly over the last 30 years, paying attention, taking initiatives and revamping the INS, perhaps we wouldn’t be in this “do or die” situation we’re in now, where an extreme response is too much, and a more measured response, “not enough.”
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Unfortunately, things were NOT addressed be a whole slew of presidents and congresses, and now we find ourselves at this point - a president with a huge amount already on his plate tries to do the best he can by his lights on this issue, and congress is as impenetrable as ever, but -as I said, -it’s a START. John Paul II used to say, “you have to deal with the world as it is, and the situation as it is.” I think this is certainly one of those times. This is where we’re at, this is the world as it is. We have to start somewhere, even if we’re only playing catch up. Thanks for writing, Tyree, Jake and FarrwestMom.
May 18th, 2007 at 12:36 am
Yes, A, this bill is a start. A start down the road to total destruction of all we hold dear in this country.
First, consider that speed and the process by which this thing is being passed. Try to get a copy of the bill to read. LULAC got copies - MeCHA gets copies, and veto rights on this. But no committee consideration, and no publication of the legislative language, and no vetting by other than the special interest groups. And Reid wants this voted on before Memorial day. If it cannot stand the scrutiny, it should be voted down in no uncertain terms.
And despite fines and so forth, this is amnesty. From the day the paper work is filed, these people become LEGAL immigrants. They may NEVER become citizens, but they can stay here. That’s amnesty!
And they will totally destroy Medicare and Social Security, because they will take out much more than they put in, and according the the Heritage data they are a net drain on our system. Two point five TRILLION dollar drain. And you and I and Buster pick up the tab for that.
The Fort Dix illegals had over 75 altercations with the law, but were never deported. So how is it different under this new law? This is one of thousands examples where our system INS/ICE simply cannot handle the paperwork. It is broken!! There are people still trying to get paperwork completed from the last failed amnesty program. All these folks will get lost in a system that cannot handle numbers like these.
This is a national security problem. It is a social services problem. It is a culteral assimilation problem. It is a bureaucracy problem. And slamming this through will not solve any of these problems, but will exacerbate them far beyond any ability or will of our government to fix them.
Are they people? Yes they are. People who have CHOSEN to come here and break our laws while building their lives here. And despite widespread opposition, we are about to reward this lawbreaking. So how about tempering this compassion with some common sense? How do you think that compassion argument would wash if you went to Mexico and behaved as these people do? Parkland hospital in Dallas delivers their babies for free (to them) in Mexico it costs $200.
We are fools and will pay for our foolishness with our country and our way of life.
May 18th, 2007 at 12:42 am
Anchoress,
Thanks to Swimmer Kennedy, this onslaught was begun in 1965. You might be interested in some of the statements made then. The irony is so thick you can cut it with a knife.
http:www.vdare.com/fallon/060809_promises.html
(I wish for preview capability…)
May 18th, 2007 at 1:05 am
There is calm in the midst of the storm…
It has been another whirlwind day on Republican blogs. Many see the death of the Republican Party due to the upcoming Illegal Immigration legislation. As I wrote in the wee hours of yesterday morning, they are entitled to their thoughts. I for one do…
May 18th, 2007 at 1:17 am
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May 18th, 2007 at 1:38 am
The Problem With Labeling Those Who Oppose Senate Immigration Bill…
Recall back during the Dubai Ports deal that those who opposed it were called racists by none other than Republicans who were in favor of such a deal. The label was an unfair attack and proved to be no more than an unjustified attempt to shut down deba…
May 18th, 2007 at 8:21 am
Anchoress, I’m with you. Yes, I’m from the East Coast, so I don’t directly live the experience of the Southwesterners, but I do live the immigrant experience–my grandmother relished telling us how her parents, fleeing the depression in Scotland, send over her 8 brothers one at a time (because they did not have enough $ to go together) to make a new start. It took over a decade to get my grandma and her mom over, and my great uncles constantly sent back $ to Scotland. Interestingly, my great grandparents had the same comments as many people do today–”too many foreigners”, “no one speaks English”–which they probably made about my dad’s family (Italian immigrants). So maybe all this colors my thinking. The fact that I personally know many hard working Hispanics and speak their language does too. Speaking someone’s language goes a long way toward making them into intelligent human beings and individuals, not just a mass of “illegals” (that term just turns my stomach).
As for the $ issue, at least some sources (such as Patrick P. O’Carroll, Jr, of the Social Security Administration in his testimony to the House on March 24, 2004) suggest that undocumented immigrants DO pay lots of $ in taxes (using ITINs, not SSNs). All immigrants, regardless of status, pay an average of $80,000 per capita more in taxes than they use in gov’t services in their lifetime (JP Smith & B. Edmonston). Also, the SSA holds about $420 billion in earnings of immigrants who are not in a position to claim benefits. Add to that that for most federal programs (and many state), you have to have a SS card to get benefits (some food banks in our region require them as well), perhaps the overall situation isn’t so dire (although yes, some states are carrying more of the burden than others).
My question is, if indeed we are bleeding $ paying for healthcare for immigrants or helping them deliver their babies, or providing them food, what else should we do? Allow them to starve? Make them deliver their babies at home? Compassion sometimes isn’t financially pleasant, but if we don’t act compassionately toward our fellow human beings, what does that make us? Rich, but at what cost? (I think of those who want to criminizalize the Church’s help to undocumented immigrants, including those people who provide food and water to badly dehydrated immigrants crossing the desert).
Yes, I agree there are security issues that need to be dealt with. Yes, people should use legal channels, but perhaps we could make those legal channels accessible. Many of my friends have married foreign born spouses and the legal hurdles they’ve had to jump through have been time consuming and very expensive.
May 19th, 2007 at 1:15 am
CatholicInTheAcademy… said, “but perhaps we could make those legal channels accessible”. The United States allows almost 1 million legal immigrants every year. If we need to raise the number, lets debate it and put it to a vote. However, there have been 7 amnesties since the big one in 1987, and not one of them has slowed the tide.
Being compassionate is good. Being compassionate with other people’s money is a grave and evil sin. Illegal immigrants get reduced tuition in California colleges and my son and I will be paying off his education loans for years.
“Undocumented immigrants” is a lie, because they have tons of forged documents, illegal immigrant is the correct term, as it tells the truth about their status.
You said, “I’m from the East Coast, so I don’t directly live the experience of the Southwesterners” and you should probably learn something about the problem before you form an opinion. Changing a community by criminal activity hurts lots of people, and they deserve even more pity and Christian understand because they are innocent. I am Catholic too, born and raised. I live four miles from parish I was baptised in. I live in the parish where my wife was baptised. We were married here and raised 5 children here. They went to the parish school and my wife taught there. I have been a member of the Knights of Columbus here since I was 22. At the last Fiesta at our parish I worked a booth with my fellow Knights, and beside them, saw 8 people I knew. The isolation is incredible. They feeling of loss is enough to bring me to to the depths of despair and beyond. Think of your world and your friends and family, replaced in a few short years by people who broke the law to take all that from you. I am tired of everyone telling me to think about how they feel. I wish just once they would ask how I feel.
May 19th, 2007 at 1:42 am
One more point. The parish I belong to used to have a state assemblyman by the name of Morrissey. He is Captain Ed’s uncle. He was defeated by a pro-abortion Hispanic from our own parish, who is now one of the rising stars of the Democratic Party. Captain Ed’s uncle left the parish when the pastor refused to keep the Pro-abortion candidate from acting as a Eucharistic minister and lecturer at Mass during the election. Our Church sure gets a little weird about which issues are important to support, and what they are doing in my area has lead to a crisis in faith for many of us. Illegal immigration is a crime, and the Church has been a little to fast to rant about forgiveness then the victims of that crime are still suffering.
Thanks, Anchoress, for giving me a chance to vent. I just pray that someday the Church will stop telling me to understand them, and try to understand me, just a little.
May 20th, 2007 at 1:09 am
Once again, Anchoress, you and I are on the same page.
And anyone who delinks over one issue is, frankly, an idiot. I know some have done the same with me, and it doesn’t bother me either. I figure extremists (those who would delink over one issue) on any issue don’t really feel at home at our sites, anyway.
May 20th, 2007 at 1:13 am
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May 21st, 2007 at 10:27 pm
I have not found a label that sticks as long as the “HI!! My name is” stickers at a meeting.
But I think we have a long history of Doing The Wrong Thing in immigration (according to some of my neighbors, going back to allowing the Mayflower to land).
I think we have yet to learn a thing from any of this stuff.
Tear the damn walls and fences down. Let’s get on with what we do best.