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June 5, 2007Minutemen: Bush’s instincts better than someTraitorous Jeb Bush and Ken Mehlman have penned a piece in support of the current illegal immigration bill. I know, I know, they’re Bushies and not to be trusted, but I’m putting it out there for you to read, if you haven’t already. I feel a rant coming on…and probably many de-linkings from the right. This may be a multi-parter. Does anyone remember a while back, when “The Minute Men” were going to shame the nation and President Bush into building a wall and settling the problem of illegal Mexican immigrants pouring through our borders? President Bush caught a lot of hell from the far-right for using the word “vigilantes” (and that was a perfectly precise use of the word, by the way - these people kept “vigil”):
I thought the movement was a good-intention that would not be able to make a difference, mostly because the folks at the head of it seemed a little too slick, a little too comfortable with the posture of a flim-flam fella. I also thought (and this won’t surprise you) that the President was correct - that any president would be correct - to discourage this “taking the law into our own hands” mentality. But when President Bush had a congress and senate on his side and started talking about fixing the immigration problem, what did you do? You started screaming “no amnesty! Ship them all back! They’re criminals! Make them come in legally! If you don’t agree you’re a traitor!”. Then you killed anything constructive that might have occurred by scaring the easily-scared house GOP and listening to rabble-rousing and demagoguery designed by some to weaken the president, by others to promote themselves and by still others to pull the party ever-rightward into the pretend paradise of party purity. A year later, you’re still screaming the same stuff, and accusing the president of treason. The Democrats are in charge, the president is appreciably weakened, probably a few 100,000 more illegals have come into the country while you’ve demanded solutions - and rejected all of them as unworkable - while holding out for perfection, offering only spiteful snark instead of serious alternative solutions. You were offered porridge and threw that off the table demanding ice-cream. Now you’re getting gruel. Hey, don’t blame the first cook; porridge was at least nutritious. Have you had enough stamping the feet? Are you ready to sit down, now, and be practical and pragmatic? It might be too late, though. The Democrats have the steam to push through a plan they prefer and they got some of that steam from you, and your tantrums. Yes, the bill from last year, the one you screamed down, was better than this year’s. You might be able to ring a few phones and demand from your representatives “something better than this,” it’s worth a try, if you are serious about getting something done. But the legislators you connect with may well say, “hey, we were in a stronger position last year, with a better bill, and you took it out of our hands.” They might even get biblical and try, “We sang you a jig and you wouldn’t dance, now we have this dirge…and maybe we all mourn.” Well, I doubt they’d say that last part, actually. But they might say the first. Gerald lays it out in plain-speaking:
Do give Gerald a read - put your best Christian charity hat on, ask the Lord to bless you while you read - and see if he doesn’t make some sense. “But Anchoress, he’s insulted us; he’s questioned our patriotism! He’s presumed to lecture us about the state of our souls!” Not a bit - he’s just doing his job as president, and challenging the people to get serious. Most of us don’t even realize that we make choices about how we’re going to receive the world and what’s in it, what we see and hear. If you choose to feel insulted by a challenge, well, fine…but remember, you hated the left for doing so - you hated the left when they accused Bush of “questioning our patriotism” when (as you know) he did no such thing. In your emotionalism you’ve decided not to take the president’s remarks in context, and consider them as a piece, but to instead accept the random lines-out-of-context offered to you by the press and those whose motives are far-ranged and often personal. The headlines were tantalizing red meat: Bush Betrays Base. Bush Worries for Nation’s Soul. Bush says You Don’t Want What’s Best for the Country! Out of context red meat, easily gobbled down. And by the way, the press has noticed what sets you off, and they’ve been playing to your heat, and you’ve been responding to their bell-ringing like Pavlovian dogs, too. Part II here. http://theanchoressonline.com/2007/06/05/pres-bushs-instincts-better-than-some/trackback/ 103 Responses to “Minutemen: Bush’s instincts better than some” |
June 5th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
If the Right thinks that the LSM haven’t noticed what pisses us off about Big George, then we’re no doubt in for a big shock - the media have been playing GOP/nativist paranoia like a saxophone for the past five weeks now… They want us to believe all our worst nightmares about compassionate conservatism are coming true.
The one MAJOR problem I can see with the GOP instituting the legalization process for 11 million immigrants, almost all of whom are Mexican, is that (from what I can tell) they’re not likely to repay the favor with party loyalty. The Democrats know how to sew up minority votes.
June 5th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
The press have noticed a potential gap between Dubya and his base, and they’re doing all they can to widen it - they’ve been playing GOP/nativist paranoia like a saxophone for weeks now…
The single biggest problem I can see with the Republicans legalizing 11 million Mexicans and 1 million assorted other illegals is that they’re not likely to repay the favor with party loyalty. The Democrats are past masters at sewing up the minority vote and, thanks to a bunch of loudmouthed Malkin clones in the blogosphere, a lot of Mexicans now know EXACTLY what the Republicans think of them - it seems that the Right can’t even look at a Chicano without flashing back to that infamous soccer game (”OSAMA! OSAMA! OSAMA!”) and feeling waves of revulsion wash over them.
June 5th, 2007 at 1:26 pm
Great post. My thoughts exactly. If the problem is not attempted to be solved then it will get worse. The Far left and the Far right wish to kill this bill. That should tell us something. Both are in their many years game of political chicken. The fact is that as the illegal population increases the less power conservatives have to do common sense reform. It is simple demographics really. Already the 12 million have in the works 3.1 million American children that are going to be voters. They have wifes and husbands and cousin that are voters. At some point one must be politically wise when to know to make a deal.
This is the rub and what is dangerous. We have cites in Texas that vote forbid services and housing to illegals. On the other hand we have Cities that declare themselves Sanctuaries. Some states vote to deny hospital services to illegal aliens. While others vote to give them deals on in state tutuion. I am all for Federalism and State rights but this is madness. The country cannot continue to operate this way. This where this political game of chicken has got us.
June 5th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Sorry for the multiple post. Print whichever one you like more.
June 5th, 2007 at 1:28 pm
Wow. Just wow. A wonderful rant, and exactly how I feel as a right-leaning voter. You remain my icon, but I sense you will get as much warmth from conservatives for these thoughts as Pluto does from our SUV emissions. Love you, and stay strong.
June 5th, 2007 at 1:55 pm
a lot of Mexicans now know EXACTLY what the Republicans think of them…it seems that the Right can’t even look at a Chicano without flashing back to that infamous soccer game (”OSAMA! OSAMA! OSAMA!”) and feeling waves of revulsion wash over them.
Well that behavior by the Mexicans (and their recent booing of Miss USA) was grotesque. But one forgets that the folks booing America are not the one’s who are here.. While some might recall the Cinco de Mayo march of 2006 and see “angry hoards of Mexicans uninterested in assimilation” some of us remember that those were typical A.N.S.W.E.R. mobs. This Cinco de Mayo we saw no replay. A.N.S.W.E.R. is brilliant at assembling short-term mobs (and mob-mentalities) and yes, there will always be members of any group who lean far-left (or far-right) but if the GOP is smart they’ll recall that Mexicans are very family-oriented, children-oriented and pro-life. When they vote, they should naturally be inclined to vote GOP…unless they have long memories of these last few years.
June 5th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
My sentiments exactly, A.
EXACTLY.
June 5th, 2007 at 2:00 pm
[...] must-read update: The Anchoress is FED UP with blogtards, too. Go [...]
June 5th, 2007 at 2:10 pm
Anchoress, I could cry because you’ve sooooo perfectly taken my own jumble of thoughts and reactions and turned them into coherent ideas. I applaud you for jumping into the toxic cesspool and swimming against the tide of hysteria and demagoguery. It’s not easy to do at this point, with temperatures at flash point.
Indeed, President Bush has been right about so many things, with remarkable foresight. Yet so seldom is anyone but GWB ever held accountable for past words. The MinuteMen fiasco is only the latest example. Bless his heart, President Bush tried to warn Hannity & Malkin & Co. about those goons. I think “vigilantes” was a charitable description.
June 5th, 2007 at 2:18 pm
if the GOP is smart they’ll recall that Mexicans are very family-oriented, children-oriented and pro-life. When they vote, they should naturally be inclined to vote GOP…unless they have long memories of these last few years.
In other words, we do have the potential ability to steal a lot of the Hispanic bloc from the Dems over the next ten years - but only if the Repubs play to their strengths and rediscover what there is in conservatism that can appeal to the Mexican-American man in the street.
I think that some Hispanics secretly resent the Democratic nanny-state umbrella, or are rapidly learning to… We have to ask them if they really want some gringo with a (D) after his name to come up to them, give them a condescending pat on the back, and GIVE them something that they’d feel much prouder for EARNing.
June 5th, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Anchoress, I certainly don’t agree with those on the far right who are demonizing supporters of this compromise, but I don’t agree with your condescending and patronizing tone in this post either. Those of us who disagree with this compromise aren’t children, nor are we stupid, and we don’t appreciate being treated as such. And if you think you didn’t treat us that way, I’d recommend re-reading your post and considering what you would think if you were on the receiving end of it.
Yes, there are morons who oppose this bill, just as there are morons who support it. But the vast majority of us have good, rational reasons for opposing it - reasons like the foreknowledge that any amnesty plan without first securing the border will result in millions more coming across the border. Reasons like the fact that this bill really does nothing to secure the border and actually decreases the security provided for by the 109th Congress. Reasons like the future eligibility of amnesty recipients for welfare and entitlement programs, which could bankrupt either the federal government or, more likely, the American taxpayer. Reasons like a basic feeling that those who break our laws to come here should not ever be given citizenship, that citizenship should be restricted to those who follow our immigration laws.
Maybe there are some who think we should deport millions of illegal immigrants. I’m not one of them. I’m actually in favor of a sensible amnesty plan. But this plan should only come about after we’re sure that the border is secured and millions more aren’t going to pour across it to seek amnesty. And this plan should ensure that illegal immigrants don’t end up bankrupting America by becoming eligible by the millions for welfare and entitlements. And this plan should ensure that those who broke our laws to come here are not rewarded with the ultimate prize: American citizenship. If illegal immigrants believe that if they come across our border and wait long enough, they’ll get citizenship, what will deter future immigrants from trying? Permanent legal residency is generous enough.
June 5th, 2007 at 2:46 pm
It’s extremely frustrating to have this all or nothing attitude that those in favor of the bill keep pushing. If we don’t wave the wand and make the illegals legal, a) it will get worse and b) we’re mean and childish. So okay, the wand gets waved, and the millions of illegals can (snort) come out of the shadows. While millions more pour over the border. How does this bill fix the problem for *our country*, not just for the illegals with their newly legal status, and for Mexico who gets to continue exporting their poorest and least educated?
Sure, there are a handful on the right who say “Deport them all,” but be honest - that is BY FAR not even a sizeable minority, much less a majority. Everyone knows it can’t be done, and just about everybody would accept some legalization, AFTER we ensure that this problem isn’t going to come up again in 20 more years.
If we stop “stamping our feet” will you be honest and admit that the meager enforcement provisions in this bill WILL NOT EVER BE ENFORCED, or explain your reasoning for thinking that they will be, in light of how it’s written, and in light of history? They are benchmarks - funding has to be provided, but the Z visas are NOT contingent upon even one yard of fencing being actually built, and these provisions further weaken what little enforcement we do have.
These are legitimate concerns - why won’t you acknowledge them?? How is this bill going to stop new people - who costs taxpayers nearly 20k per household per year - from pouring over the border?
June 5th, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Nate - I’ve never said that the bill should be passed “as is” and I’ve never said it was even “great.” All I’ve ever said is, “it’s a start,” and I’ve admitted the thing’s got flaws and problems. That’s not what this post was about. It was about the fact that the right has become so enthralled to emotion on this issue that it has lost track of some painful truths, one of which is that we lost our best opportunity to create and pass something acceptable and workable last year, and that we’re not in a position to dictate, this time. When we were, we threw last year’s attempt on the floor and demanded an extreme solution. Now, some are finally coming around to realize that the extreme solution of “shipping them all back” is not feasible, but they’re still not wishing to come around much and move a solution forward.
Enforcement is primary - so is fixing the INS. But “first secure the border, then do the other stuff” is a fakery and a diversion - because there is no reason why both securing the borders and offering naturalization cannot be done at once. Yes, fine put up a fence…but let’s get something in the works, right now, not some nebulous time in the future, to get the folks who should be naturalized naturalized. If we don’t start doing that now, then when the wall is built “sometime in the future” and the issue is again broached, we’ll just have more yelling and screaming, more punting the whole thing down the street for “someday…”
And if I seemed condescending, I simply reveal my weaknesses as a writer…but I’m trying like hell to get the people on the right to stop hyperventilating, stomping their feet and further weakening a president who still has to be able to have SOME influence to protect the nation and to govern. What I am seeing on the right is the very behavior that drove me from the left - feelings of entitlement, “hurt” feelings…entirely too much feeling and very little offering of alternative solutions - again precisely what the right has hated about the left, all these years. I note your own post is short on solutions as well. You mention that “amnesty recipients” will be a drain on the “welfare” of the nation…and forget the fact that the majority of these folks are coming in to work. And speaks volumes - probably unintentionally - about what you think of these people.
You asked me what I would think if I had this column directed at me? I would think…how much of this rings true, and am I helping or hindering a solution.
I have no problem thinking long and hard about my own motives and understandings here…and I don’t think it’s unfair of me to ask my fellows to also think about their own. We all need to be thinking deeply about it, and not simply hollering.
And don’t worry…I get lots and lots of opportunity for introspection and plenty of opportunities to re-consider myself in my email!
June 5th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
Laura, when did I ever say “all or nothing?” If anything “all or nothing” is what I keep seeing from the opponents. I have people in my email telling me yes, it IS possible to ship 12 million people out, and yes, I’m a “Miss Mexicali Rosita” for choosing “wetbacks” over “decent Americans.” They may be a minority - if you say so, I’ll accept it - but they’re pretty dang loud and persistent, and most of the righty blogs seem to agree with them, given that all they do is label this thing “the AMMMMMNESTY bill” without really giving serious discussion to naturalization beyond, “oh great, now they’ll come in even bigger droves.” As I said to Nate, I think this “first put up the wall, then we’ll talk about the rest of it” is nothing but a ruse meant to put off an inevitable discussion for as long as possible, and that’s not honest.
There are things I DO NOT LIKE in this bill, including the removed “backtaxes” bit (there will have to be some sort of payback or fine - that’s only fair to America) and I don’t like the difficulty that desirable and skilled immigrants will have to face - that needs to be fixed. But see, this is what I’m trying to say…can we please WORK TO FIX THIS BILL rather than simply declaring it dead, driving a stake thru it for good measure and then waiting another year - or more - to take another shot at dealing with this issue. I don’t see how we can wait another year.
How do I expect the “meager” enforcement measures to be enforced? Well, we’re demanding enforcement, aren’t we? In 35 years, the government hasn’t enforced it under any administration…because no one demanded it of them, before. Keep up the demand, hold them accountable for not enforcing, by all means…but let’s stop stalling solutions until “this” criteria and then “that” criteria and then ‘the next” criteria are met. If we do that I believe we’ll continue to tread water on this for another 5 years, to our detriment.
And I’m happy that we’re having a conversation.
June 5th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
First for those that say the government will not enforce the laws. Please understand there are areason why it cannot be enforce on a practicl level today. The burden of proof often cnnot be met because we do not have a workable ID and Verfication system. You need a new law to get that done. Also , please take a trip down to your local Federal Courthouse. You will see alot of folks ,mainly drig related, that would disagree with you greatly that the Govt is not enforcing the laws. Heck check out the IRS. Maybe one problem is that our politicians give us what we want and federalize too many crimes. There are so many resources and too many federal crimes. Like the new hate ones.
Also, I ask people that say Bush has done nothing to take a step back. This article from the on the border shows a situation that I am sure Bush finds ironic.
http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/news/border_77031___article.html/fence_officials.html
Read it please. The Bush adminstration is being accused of moving too fast on the border by businessmen and farmers and in fact of ignoring the law to consult them on the bloody fence everyone wants. That is one of many articles. Towns are complaining of tons of cameras in their town. We are conservatives and we should be the first ones to realize that BIG GOVT projects often are hard on the local level for various valid reasons. I find an astonishing amount of people that think we own the land on the border. We do not. So point out problems with the bill please. But also try to educate your self on what the situation is at the border and it is not as easy as we would like it to be.
June 5th, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Anchoress,
I will say the backtaxes has been put back in the Senate bill. McCain got that back in Even though I am not sure how it is workable. I expect a lot of American business people and individuals that hired them are not thrilled with that provision.
Also there might be a technical problem. Senate Bill appear to have to be revenue neutral. Reveneu raising bill I think have to originate in the House. In fact there is an effort bycertain conservatives to “blueslip” it on that account. I guess the Senate folks have researched it and don’t think that is a problem. However if memory serves me right there is a potential problem with that part of the bill being in the senate bill.
So all this talk of demanding back taxes in the Senate bill might be a trick to derail it on a procedural matter
We see here
According to this report, Republicans in the House of Representatives are considering a procedural remedy to stop the Senate bill:
The trump card conservatives may hold is a constitutional rule that revenue-related bills must originate in the House. The Senate immigration measure requires that illegal immigrants pay back taxes before becoming citizens, opening the door to a House protest, dubbed a “blue slip” for the color of its paper.
House Republicans used the same back-taxes mandate for a blue-slip threat that derailed last year’s immigration conference. The new Senate bill still must survive two more weeks of voter scrutiny and contentious amendments, but several conservatives already are lying in wait for the Senate to “make the same mistake twice,” as one House GOP aide put it.
“If we get an opportunity to do it, believe me, we’ll do it,” the aide said. “I think it’s going to be a matter of who will get there first. A number of people in the House are dying to be fingered as the person who killed [the Senate bill]”
http://dailypundit.com/?p=26007
So see. Even the demand that sound reasonable and that are loudly being made by some conservatives appear to be nothing but a trick to kill it. THis makes me very upset
June 5th, 2007 at 3:52 pm
I wish you weren’t receiving hostile email, honestly, but it is not representative of either polls or comments on the major right wing blogs. By all or nothing, I mean, accept this bill, or be branded a brat. This bill is not substantially different from the amnesties that have come before - what enforcement provisions are there, are not required to be enforced or are roundly ignored; the only reason we NOW say, “first put up a wall” is because we’ve been repeatedly promised enforcement that never comes. Burn me once, shame on Congress, burn me twice, shame on me. This bill is written in such a way that amnesty is granted without regard to actual enforcement, and how can that be anything but deliberate? Congress is *not* that stupid.
You write, “Enforcement is primary - so is fixing the INS. But “first secure the border, then do the other stuff” is a fakery and a diversion - because there is no reason why both securing the borders and offering naturalization cannot be done at once.”
If enforcement really were primary - as in, “first” then they would do it. This bill does not provide for real enforcement, it is a ruse to shut people up; otherwise it would not have lessened the fence we were promised - and which has not been built - just one year ago. We’ve been demanding enforcement, increasingly louder, since 1986; the 1986 amnesty included enforcement provisions for that very reason. Legalization is not a solution except to the people who are here illegally, and who cost taxpayers $20k per year per household even though they do work, and even when they do pay taxes.
The only way to fix this bill is to put real teeth in the enforcement provisions - as Gerald says, have a “real border,” also to have real penalties for employers. Many people will self-deport if their jobs dry up, and just as they did at those to chicken “factories” where ICE raids deprived employers of cheap illegal labor, Americans will line up around the block for those jobs. AFTER those things are done, for those that remain, especially those with American children, permanent residency is a good option. Those are very common suggestions from opponents of the bill. But those ideas were proposed and rejected. The “temper tantrums” now are voters holding their Congresscritters accountable; better to do it now and try to effect change when it counts than be silent and get revenge next election, or be resigned now and apathetic next election.
As an aside, are any HTML tags allowable in comments? I hate to rely on CAPS and ** for emphasis. Although that’s probably a sign I need to work harder on my writing.
June 5th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
Laura, good post - yes, HTML is permissible here for links, boldface and italics. I see over at Drudge that all of this may be moot, but honestly, I’d much rather see the bill fixed over the course of a few weeks then killed - leaving us with nothing, again.
June 5th, 2007 at 4:00 pm
lsusportsfan, if there was ever a case for eminent domain, a border fence is IT. As for how it will affect landowners, while this guy and others may be griping, “If we don’t know where the fence is going to be built, we won’t know where we’re going to farm,” said Leal,” (and what’s that mean, is he not farming on his own land??) I’m sure they can figure a way to secure the border even on riverfront property. Also, I can provide plenty of anecdotes from people on the border whose land is being trashed by border crossers and who are unsafe in their own homes because they live in a high traffic area.
As for a virtual fence, all that will accomplish is giving us the ability to see people illegally cross the border… but the San Diego fence and the fence in Israel are proven to work.
June 5th, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Laura, the problem on the border is complex. It can not be put on a bumpersticker. I saw that looking at Arizona elections where there were very mixed signals sent.
I am just saying that all don’t see it the same way. The bill that was passed last year demands that Bush take in account local concerns. He can’t ignore that and if he does the COurt will make him demand it. This the Fence is delayed Again that is just the fact. I keep hearing pay landowners 3 times the amount of the land. But that blows the fence budget pretty quick and we have less fencing at the end of the year. Bush cant switch funds around as we saw quite vividly as to the Supplemental bill
As to a virtual fence why not. People will be to climb or dig under a real fence. It is need in certain areas but a virtual fence will do the trick. Anyway in both cases you need people on the border which this bill attempts to do.
June 5th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
I agree with the Anchoress. I am so tired of the tantrums. People need to realize that there are certain political realities at play here. There is no way the right is going to get the kind of bill they say they have to have through the Congress. Ain’t gonna happen. And just complaining about the issue year after year and then gleefully killing every bill that comes up is not going to make it any easier for them to get what they want.
If they are not careful, they will only weaken their president and their party, lose more seats in the House and Senate and maybe even the White House. And then they scream bloody murder all they want when they see what President Hillary Clinton with a super majority can come up with.
And I have heard people say ship em all back too. I have heard them say worse than that the truth be told and I have been called all kinds of names myself just for disagreeing with the hardliners on this. I am seeing a side to the right here that I do not like at all. And I have been voting Republican too. I am not a Democrat.
June 5th, 2007 at 4:26 pm
laura:
That is not true. That socalled virtual fence employs the same kind of technology the military uses and it is more efficient in certain areas than just slapping up a wall and then not watching it. This is the problem, people say they want border security and then they cannot even decide on what that is. 700 miles is a very long way and it covers all kinds of terrain, including mountains and rivers and deserts. So far all the right has done is make impossible demands and try to make it impossible for anyone to do anything.
June 5th, 2007 at 4:32 pm
Laura, a few other thoughs. The bill actually does increase fines on employers quite a bit. It also gives a system of workplace enforcement. Will Americans line up for those jobs at Chicken plants? Well if the neighboring Parish it is Chicken plant city. Talking to the owners(some whom are deer hunting buddies) they tell me that they would have to close alot. The margin is that thin in some cases.
As for the Government. THe Government is not a living thing by itself. THe Government is us. WE THE PEOPLE. Most of the politicians that were there in 86 are not even there. I was 15 at the time. We learn from past mistakes and try to make it better but I refuse to have the sins of our Govt fathers visited on me when I could not vote the last time. IF WE want it and demand it can be. But that is the rub. That takes interaction and maybe we don’t want to be bothered.
In the end Enforcement first will not pass. That is just the sad fact. THere are not the votes for it. THe people that want high tech workers, the immigrant groups, the Church groups all want different things. They feel if there is enforcement first that the goalposts will be moved everytime there is a achievement. From what I have seen on the net they might have some basis on fact to believe that. So where does that leave us. Again at the bothersome matter of those 12 million people. They have to be dealt with as a part of it. If we don’t we go back to the status quo. Meaning the problem gets worse and it gets harder to get alot of what is in this bill back in.
I understand where you are coming from. But after two years of this discussion we are back at the same place. In fact politically we are at a worse place. What do we do with the 12 million. We do not have the votes to put that issue off 3 or 4 years as a part of the deal. So I think it is either compromise on some sort of regualrization to get everything else or nothing at all. IF you can find the votes in Congress for enforcement first and what that means I will gladly listen
June 5th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
Terrye
As i keep saying there is irony upon irony here. My Senator from Louisiana is the leading person against this bill. Yet, if INS deplyed through New Orleans and the rest of Coastal Louisiana right at the start of hurricane season we would be in one heck of a fix. That is because we have 30,000 green card folks and many illegals rebuilding the coast. Only God knows what some of those people are being exposed too Chemical wise. However if INS came People would be on the phone to the Senators office in a outrage. I wish that Americans would take those jobs but they are not. Mainly because there is no place to live and the largely Hispanic foreign work force makes do somehow. Right there in this situation we see a great play of irony, moral choices , and yes down right Hypocrisy. I know I saw it first hand in Lake view a couple of weeks back with people i know. For “unskilled” labor they have a lot of skills that come in handy. I will admit it my extended family down in Mississippi has used people that show up for their property to do work. No checkingof ID by them. But they are the first to talk about the MExicans now.
So as my grandmother says when you point your finger be aware you got 4 pointing back at you.
June 5th, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Such a mass of words in the comments today! My eyes hurt just scrolling down.
Can’t we go back to Mystique and Mrs. Peel?
June 5th, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Well as for ‘86, people forget there were millions of illegals here before that bill was passed. If they included enforcement it would have been better, but even if they had not passed the bill, there is no reason to believe those people would not have kept coming. And people forget, without some kind of regularization the Democrats will never vote for the bill. And without the Democrats, there is no bill at all. So you can either cut a deal or live with the status quo.
As for the kinds of things people say I went to the link the Anchoress provided and read the following comment to the article:
Posted by (claudette sayer) on June 5, 2007 at 11:50 a.m. (Suggest removal)
Jeb:
just because you married a mex national doesn’t mean the rest of the country wants to be in bed with them….stop the invasion - you and your brother are both full of it on this issue -
******************************
Hey, but don’t call em bigots.
June 5th, 2007 at 5:04 pm
While I read your blog and agree with most of your views and I have never posted here before: I must strongly disagree on this one. We are in a leaking boat. I don’t think we need to worry about the water in the boat, but rather, first fix the hole in the boat. THEN we can deal with a boat full of water.
No one (at least that I know of) is advocating rounding up 12 million illegal immigrants and their families for immediate deportation. The bill that has been presented to us is just a sop towards actually fixing the whole in the boat. We, the voters, know from past experience that the government is trying to pull the wool over our eyes and kow towing to special interests. They have lied to us in the past on this issue and they are lying now. There is no seriousness in this legislation only pandering and deception.
And for those of you who only think that America gets booed by Mexicans IN Mexico, I challenge you to attend any football game in the Central Vally of California. The illegal Mexicans AND the US born Hispanics mostly won’t stand up for the National Anthem. I have been told personally by some of them that they will not respect it because it isn’t their country. Yet they are happy to use the school facilities paid for by tax dollars.
If we don’t get a handle on the massive numbers of illegals entering the country FIRST, and if we don’t concentrate on assimilation of the various nationalities into one cohesive national identity, we are doomed as a country.
I have a friend who says “The trains are in the tunnel. The question is just how fast they are going and when the train wreck will be.” I think I’ll be dead before that, but it is sad to see the disintegration of our boat because we refuse to do routine maintenance
June 5th, 2007 at 5:07 pm
Sorry Bender, I had to take Mystique down…she was messing up the site and I pay way too much in bandwidth with the new design, to let some shape-shifting villain mess things up!
June 5th, 2007 at 5:37 pm
Dust Bunny
At times I do not know whats happening in California. The whole pagent thing does disturb a bunch. Maybe it is because I expect that the crowd was full of people that are the haves and are not the people we see cleaning our hotel rooms
But to California. I hear that on occasion. But I rarely hear that occuring on a regular basis in Texas and other places? I don’t know why. Maybe it the culture is different. All Texans view themselves as different:)
But again we are back to where we were in the beginning. What to do? We can wait but the problem will much bigger. I have looked ahead. It doesnt appear to me that we are getting back the house in 2008. The Senate is worse. In fact last night the Senator from Wyoming died so now we have a special election for that seat next year too. The only person I see really vunerable is My Sen Mary Landrieu and yet no one wants to bite the bullet to run agaisnt her yet it seems. So we could lose seats in the Senate.
June 5th, 2007 at 5:56 pm
Terrye, the military *watches* their virtual fence. There is no reasonable expectation that a virtual border fence will be watched. We sent military down there - taking up valuable training time - but they were not allowed to do much but paperwork. There WERE enforcement provisions in ‘86. They were not enforced. They have been ignored. That’s why people are demanding enforcement FIRST this time; we’ve been burned. As to your deer hunting buddies, if their business relies on using illegal labor at wages less than the minimum wage, then this bill harms them, not helps them, because all those illegals won’t have to put up with being treated like near-slaves by Americans who ought to know better. There’s no defensible argument that I’m aware of for paying people less than the legal minimum wage. They’re taking advantage of people who are essentially defenseless. That’s not what this country is all about. The three million people had to be “dealt with” in ‘86. Now we have 12 million to “deal with” and in 20 years it is a reasonable expectation that we will have 48 million to deal with, if history is any guide. What is your plan for that, given the historical facts that enforcement provisions do not get enforced, and this legislation is written in such a way that they don’t need to be?
Why the artificial rush to deal with this? Why is it a crisis? Is it a crisis because more and more keep coming? This legislation does nothing to prevent it. Is it a crisis because they’re “living in the shadows”? They are living here openly, buying homes, getting bank accounts, having jobs, getting social security cards. What’s shadowy about that, and why are we in such a rush to stop it? Why can’t enforcement be tried, for once?
As for bigots, that’s a cheap shot… you get any group large enough, and there *will* be a bigot in it. It doesn’t follow that everyone else is. In a group as honorable as our military, we still had Abu Ghraib; in any large group, there are always a few people who tar the rest. That’s how humanity works.
June 5th, 2007 at 6:00 pm
lsusportsfan, I’m in New Orleans and I know what you mean, but have you considered the effect on our already fragile economy? Have you been to an ER lately? Are your kids in public schools? The benefits of the 30k plus illegals (the Tulane study listed that many actually illegals, and more people here legally - I have no gripe with people here legally) that are currently in NOLA are FAR outweighed by the burden we are paying, and will pay for decades to come.
June 5th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
…you get any group large enough, and there *will* be a bigot in it. It doesn’t follow that everyone else is. In a group as honorable as our military, we still had Abu Ghraib; in any large group, there are always a few people who tar the rest. That’s how humanity works.
That’s entirely true, and it’s true everywhere - just as soldiers are tarred unfairly with the Abu Ghraib brush, Catholic priests are unfairly lumped together as “pedophiles.” A few “bad apples” will always color the world’s perception of a group as a whole, and negatives are always more memorable than positives.
Sadly, as Jonah Goldberg points out in his column today (linked to in my post) there are some on the right who are certainly entitled to feel distrust on the issue of enforcement, but they’re becoming so over-the-top (and yes, coming off, sometimes as racist)that they too are coloring the world’s perception of the GOP as racist and zenophobic. He writes: Conservatives dislike being called bigots and yahoos by liberals. They’re even more vexed when such barbs come from the leader of their own party. But those same conservatives have stepped on their own garden rakes because they’ve allowed themselves to be cast as the villains in one of America’s greatest stories.
It’s the emotionalism and the enormous rage that is doing it, and it is going to come back and bite the whole party in the rear. If conservatives and the GOP want to lead on this issue, they’ve got to stop hyperventilating and - like the good folks on this comments thread - start talking real solutions, start acknowledging the real difficulties inherent in just about any portion of immigration control even, yes, something as seemingly “issue-free” as “building a fence.”
Until the right can calmly, maturely do that, they’re going to continue to propagate the impression that they are simply beyond reason, and - just as the soldiers and priests have to deal daily with the ugly misconceptions about their hearts and souls…so will the right. There are reasons some of us are begging the right to pull back from the edge, and that is definitely one of them. If you think it’s tough coming back into power now…wait until the nation turns away in disgust because the press and the left can give 3,000 ugly exhibits of mouth-frothing, gutscreams from rightwing blogs and comments threads.
June 5th, 2007 at 6:38 pm
Laura:
They can watch this virtual fence too. I think one of the problems today is that too many people make their livings sitting at desks and not actually working. They have no idea what would be entailed in building a 700 mile physical fence. That would be like building a fence from Des Moines, Iowa to Pitsburg. It is as if they think the government can wave a magic wand and make something that looks like the Great Wall of China, just pop up out of the ground. The truth is if they don’t use technology and virtual fencing for part of this fence, half of Mexico could be up here before they get the thing built. In the meantime, the same people will complain about how long it is taking.
And as for the enforcement provision in 86, they were not written in the bill the way they needed to be. But this is not 1986. It seems that for the liberals it was always Viet Nam and for the hardliners it is always 1986. And like I said, just reverting to the status quo won’t solve the problem at all. And none of that in any way deals with the political realities of the situation. Harping back on something that happened two decades ago will not help the balance of power in the Congress.
I did not say anything about deer hunting buddies. I don’t know what you are talking about.
What artificial rush? The hardliners spend half their time complaining that the government is moving too slow and the other half complaining it is moving too fast. How about coming up with a viable alternative that can actually pass into law? It would seem to me that if they can come up with enough clout to kill a bill, they should be able to fix it. Unless of course they prefer to demagogue the issue rather than find a solution.
June 5th, 2007 at 7:08 pm
Emotionalism in politics is pretty much never a good thing, but I think I still have to side with “the base” on this one. The way to handle illegal immigrants already in the nation is controversial, and the range of opinions goes from one extreme to the other.
However, there is no reason why border enforcement, at the least, shouldn’t have been dealt with by now. Essentially everybody wants at least a fence built, and “the base” would be much more able to swallow an amnesty solution if they were at least guaranteed that the same problem wouldn’t come up again in the near future.
But they have no such guarantee. As far as I can tell, the majority of both Democrat and Republican congressmen have every intention of doing nothing of any real meaning to secure the border, while they still produce an amnesty bill. I really think most of the base would accept some form of a compromise. What we currently have, seems to me, to fulfill exactly nothing they want.
June 5th, 2007 at 7:24 pm
Achoress, we’re talking at cross purposes. Believing as many of us do that the president and the congress are hosing us, it doesn’t make any difference what the bill says. It’s all lies. So, this bill, last year’s bill, no bill,what’s the difference? The aliens, or whatever you want to call them, are beside the point. The burning question is, what allegiance do we owe to a government that has sold out this country ? “When in the course of human events……”
June 5th, 2007 at 7:36 pm
Okay, so curseman and igout don’t trust, don’t believe - that’s fine, I can understand why you wouldn’t…but while “a fence” is desirable, remember it took Israel quite a while to manage to erect her’s. Do you really mean that nothing else should move forward until ours is up? Doesn’t that seem like wasting a lot of time?
And igout, do you really believe “it’s all lies and the government has sold out the country?”
Because if I really believed that, I wouldn’t be able to sit at a keyboard and grouse about it…I’d have to leave the country.
Maybe you’re just frustrated and feeling kicked about…do you really believe what you wrote? If so, no effort could begin to satisfy.
This is unproductive. Please come back and tell us what would begin to satisfy, what would begin to restore your faith. Please tell us how you think these satisfactory things could be done, and what problems, hitches, glitches or snags might pose at least a temporary complication to the works.
I’m totally serious. I didn’t begin this to just invite a bitching-festival. I’m encouraging you to share your real ideas; I want to hear them and be able to consider them.
If no one else is talking productively about it, we can do it, here. I have some ideas, too. But first, let’s hear yours. Please say more than “it’s easy to erect a fence,” because realistically, it’s not, which is why I’m inviting you to imagine what some of those difficulties might be, when you respond.
June 5th, 2007 at 8:31 pm
I am tired of hearing about the lies the government sold us. If a large segment of the American people were not willing to tolerate these people being here, they wouldn’t be. When the mayor of a city like Los Angeles can blow off the INS and not get kicked out of office by voters, then do not blame the feds. The feds did not tell people to hire illegals to do everything from mow lawns to take care of children. The feds did not tell the states to even consider authorizing drivers licenses for these people. When I was a kid there were town ordinances against vagrancy written up by local government to keep drifters out of town. So talk of lies or the refusal of government to uphold the law when literally millions of Americans have for years with the complicity of town and city and state governments refused to obey the laws…well folks the problem is WE are the problem. Just blaming the government while at the same time we refuse to change the way we do things is nothing but a cop out.
Easy to build a fence? I don’t think so. The environmentalists are already planning the lawsuits. This is not the early 20th century anymore. I doubt very much if we could even get the Hoover Dam built today.
The state of Indiana has been trying to get the NAFTA highway between Evansville and Inpianaoplis done for about 20 years and they still have not decided exactly where the damn thing will go. Nothing is easy anymore.
June 5th, 2007 at 8:36 pm
sorry about that “damn” word, I am such a heathen.
June 5th, 2007 at 9:04 pm
Ok here are a few ideas I’ve been kicking around. 1st shut down the border, 2nd ask each state to set up regional areas where people can come to register, these places canbe staffed by volunteers, I’d be willing to help out a few days a week, these places can be closed military bases, that are unused, empty office space that the businesses can donate the use of rent free, ask that the telephones and internet access be donated, all on a temporary basis of course, say 6 mos to a year, ask people to donate old computers, printers, and other needed supplies. Ask It experts to set up networks between regional state offices. compile the info on the immigrants regionally then take that to the State offices where more volunteers would complie it all into one record and send it to the feds. If we ask people to step up and help us solve this problem I’m sure many would help out temporally until the feds could get the funding and program set up. Tell the immagrants that if the want any benefits of any kind they must be registered at the offices in their areas, If it is on computer it can more easily be crossed checked,also businesses can access this data base for employment purposes, If we start small and local we can get a handle on this much easier. Also we can build a fence rather quickly if we put our mind to it and all pitched in to help build, we Americans can do anything we want to if we want if bad enough and are willing to work for it. Good old Yankee ingenuity.
June 5th, 2007 at 9:09 pm
Laura
You usually can’t hire illegals for less that minimum wage. Maybe that occurs in a few places but from what I am hearing most illegals are getting above the min wage. Mainly because when they train them they don’t want them to go. Even illegals operate to the market. I am not sure if the “bigot” reference was the in reference to what I said.IF it was point it out because I don’t think I mention bigots
I hear enforcement was in the 86 bill. Was it? Was there the fencing, was there ID card, was there a worker verfication program and database, did it have provison for a masive upper grade of the border patrol. I hear that enforcement was in the 86 bill but I don’t see anything like what we have here that was in that bill
This is not the 86 bill. I keep hearing that we will not enforce it. LEts be honest here. Was immigration eneforcement on our minds in the 88 elction. IN 92? in 96? in 2000? I don’t rememeber at all we the people caring. We wanted those people to help run the economy. We can blame the Govt if we want too but in the end the problem was us. As conservatives we take individaul responsibility. We don’t expect the Govt to tke care of everything. There is a flip side. We can’t blame it for everything either. I can’t remember one race that I was involved in since 87 that I volunteered in that immigration was a issue. THe fact is we didnt care and we elected people that represented that view perfectly.
June 5th, 2007 at 9:20 pm
Laura as to the people in New Orleans
Will they be a burden? I dont know Hispanics and recent immigrants from that gruop are the leading starts up of small business and home ownership. There are so many people leaving louisiana and New Orleans I wonder who will be left. We send our kids to College on TOPS and they go to Texas to work. Ni I don’t have my kids in public school because I dont have any. But before Katrina both you and I know that the schools were horrible
From what I am hearing people like the new people that are coming in far more than the people that went to Houston and will not work. As someone told me from down there paraphrasing” I hate they might be illegal but its great to see people working for a change here and its hard tobe exist that. In the end if they are hardworking folks isnt that the type of people we want.
However being Louisiana as you know, I expect the illegals to leave and follow opportunities elsewhere. If we keep on our current course there will not be any jobs for them anyway
June 5th, 2007 at 9:29 pm
Farwest Mom you are on to soemthing
First as to the border. First and I know our National Guard is stretched but during this time period of sign up we put all the assets on the border we can so people don’t justcross and say we have ben here all the time
Second your take on registering is excellent. In a couple of years the US COMMERCE DEPARTMENT will hire ten of thousands of people for the census. I was one of those people. I went to 5 classess and worked for 2 months part time in the evening doing the census. The same thing can happen here. In fact the Commerce Department can give those people who do that first digs on the Census job.
THe Census cannot be done without average Americans. The same here, That woould work and get this sign up period done quick.
Lets say that the sign up is over in 7 months. By that time everyone gets their card and the verfication system is hopefully online. IF a someone came in late or didnt sign up they dont work. PEriod That is what will make this work. That is one reason why I say the CARD and WORKPLACE verification is the biggest enforcement measure of this bill
June 5th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
Terrye, “I did not say anything about deer hunting buddies. I don’t know what you are talking about.” Sorry, that was in response to something lsusportsfan wrote. My mistake, I apologize.
Anchoress, what would begin to restore our faith? Actual progress being made on *last year’s fence.* The Minute Men have built about a mile of fence a month, on donations. If the government were serious, it obviously could do better than a rag tag group of volunteers beset with infighting. If the President, having sent troops to the border, actually let them do something productive once they got there, instead of publicly tying their hands. If ICE, having performed the occasional “show” raid, actually prosecuted employers to the fullest extent of the law. Spot checks at known or likely offenders would be great, if that’s legal. If we can have a system in which it is *instantly* known if my Visa is active and has money available, why can’t we have a system similar to that for Social Security numbers, to see if the person is the right age, living, etc.? If the federal government cut off federal aid to sanctuary cities, that would be a good start - and that money could be used to build a fence. There are quite a lot of things that could be done right now, without benefit of a single new law being passed. As it stands today, a full 10% of Mexico’s population lives in the United States, to say nothing of Central America. These households, even the ones where people work at jobs where taxes are paid, are a net drain on us to the tune of $20k a year. It’s not cheap labor, it’s subsidized, and that’s a HUGE difference.
If we MUST have legislation that both legalizes and enforces in the same bill, then the enforcement sections should be absolutely impossible for the government to evade, unlike last years fence act which has been ignored. The fact that they left loopholes you can drive the space shuttle through shows that they are not serious about enforcement this time either. This bill as it stands today will only increase the rush to the border with no effort to stop it. We’ll actually be *worse* off than we are today with no bill, and the weight of even more households that are a net drain on society is not sustainable, *especially* given the fact that the boomers are going to be retiring and incurring much higher medical bills.
June 5th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
#39. FarrwestMom, I like your idea of registration centers - in fact I proposed such an idea locally a very long time ago, when a nearby neighborhood was becoming a gathering ground for illegals and the folks there wanted something done. My proposal was similar to yours: get them to register (with a nominal fee attached to defray costs) which would give them a “temporary worker’s card” for the local vicinity only, with contractors who hire them agreeing to sign the cards for each day’s work, which established at least a ballpark sum of earnings (and yes, the business owner would then have to put his dealings on the books.) I suggested that perhaps the center could offer very-low-cost English as a Second Language classes, and allow the workers to pay into a central fund which would establish some sort of at-least minimal level accident/emergency insurance, to take the strain off the hospitals.
My idea went nowhere - the businesses liked working fast-and-loose for cash and the local government did not want the potential lawsuits that might come from actually acknowledging the illegals are humans living and working in the area - particularly because some greedy absentee landlords have no problem renting a small house meant for a family of four to 15 men. Everyone preferred to simply let things lie. I did talk about this briefly in one of my posts last year, and no one seemed interested then, either.
But I still think if the contractors and the local gov’t could let go of some of their self-interest, it could work. I’m really starting to come to the opinion that this problem will be solved from the bottom up (local/state/fed) rather than from the top down (fed/state/local).
You said, “1st, Shut down the border,” - now, accepting the fact that shutting down the border will not happen tomorrow and - as some have said here - might not happen for a long time, given environmental/human rights lawsuits…if an idea such as you and I are proposing could get approved and implemented in the meantime, would you say, “no, don’t do it, because the borders are not closed yet?”
And please, because this is something I really am serious about asking, not just you but everyone saying “close the borders,” - how do you want it closed, and how soon do you realistically think that can happen, and what impediments can you foresee stalling it. Be realistic, knowing the world as you do. I’m really, really serious. Let’s discuss it.
June 5th, 2007 at 9:41 pm
I have a question for people that say the GOvernment will not enforce this bill.
First this one Bush’s most wanted domestic items. Besides Social Security reform this is it. He has every motivation in the world to get this up and running. In the end the PResident enforces the law not the legislative. That brings up a distrubing question. If all this is geared up and ready to go in early 2009 then does that mean that those supporting either Gulliani, Huckabee, Brounback Thompson(both), McCain, Romeny etc if you are gop do not think your guy will enforce this legislation. This in the end is a executive function. IF you don’t think they will why should we consider voting for them for President? I am not trying to be smart but that is a real honest question.
I think we forget sometimes basic Civics. In my State of Louisiana Sen Vitter and Sen Landrieu don’t go down to Rampart street in NOLA and round up illegals. Rep Baker doesnt moonlight at the border control office. In the end that is a executive fuction.
THis bill that I am seeing actuall