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June 8, 2007“So, Loser, where’s Part III?”Part III is partially written (go here and here if you don’t know what I mean) - I got jammed up yesterday and couldn’t finish it, and with the death of the immigration bill I’ll necessarily have to re-think where I wanted to go with it. Some appointments this morning will delay that. But I can make a quick observation… Remember when the Democrats won in November, and some of us said, “well, okay, maybe now that they’ve gotten control of the Houses the Left will stop feeling so put-upon and they’ll pull back from that edge of rank, bitter and soul-suffocating hate they’ve been clinging to…maybe they’ll become human again and stop the spitting.” And remember how surprised and disappointed we were to discover that no, victory not only brought no relief to them in their BDS and their ideological hate, it also brought with it no magnanimity toward the perceived “losers” on the right? Well…I have to be honest with you: perhaps because some on the BBS Far-Right are quickly evolving into caricatures (or mirror images, I can’t decide) of the BDS Left, - I’m not actually that surprised to see the so-called “winners” in this particular battle acting quite a lot like the Victorious Left of November ‘06, with the same classless, infantile (”kiss my white American ass“) and ungracious weirdness. Have I? I don’t feel marginalized. I feel pretty much the same as I did yesterday and last year, perhaps because I am the same person I was both yesterday and last year (and was never much of a joiner, to start with) so “marginalized” doesn’t sting. If “the majority who actually care about what’s right for this country” are the folks filling my email with victor-bile, then I think I’m doing just fine over here, away from the central broth of boiling rage in which those folks have decided they like to swim. I’ll just stay here on the edge and keep splashing with my toes while I watch the bubbling. Maybe I’ll chew some gum. “…bet you feel like a fool now…” Well, no, I don’t. Part of me is proud of what I’ve written in the past few days, and of how the folks from “both sides” (the “America-loving Conservatives” vs the “RINO cowards and crybabies”) managed to comport themselves in the comments section. I think when all is said and done, we elevated the discussion - moved it beyond the bitchfest, beyond the grousing-and-name-calling sort of mental masturbation that heaves and jerks but never goes anywhere and can be found in all too many places on the internets. We actually talked real ideas, real possibilities, real complications and we did it respectfully and maturely and sometimes we even managed to smile at one another in the midst of it. No, I don’t feel foolish. I think we won’t know for a while, yet, who is foolish on this issue and who is not. Roads always turn and zigzag in unexpected ways. You know…when I read that I gasped…then I laughed. We’ve corresponded, that writer and I, although not lately, not since she moved into the camp of “better Americans.” Once upon a time her standards precluded that sort of language, and she thought that even a president she disliked, like Bill Clinton, deserved the respect due the Office of the American President, not name-calling. Now she wishes ill on me, my kids and the president. You do know, don’t you, that wishing my kids ill means you never post here again, right? I don’t flatter myself that it’s any loss to you, but you do know it? I just want to make sure. I read through some of this pathetic crap and thought: what if it’s all an illusion? It’s been nagging at me for a while, how this issue - ignored by so many, for so long - not even discussed in ‘96, ‘98, ‘00, ‘02 and ‘04 - suddenly became a searing flashpoint needing a solution “yesterday” and pulling so many into positions of shrill absolutism, incapable of compromise. What if it’s all an illusion, just like the Cinco de Mayo “nationwide protests” by Hispanics was an ‘06 (election year) illusion that had nothing behind it in ‘07 (no elections). What if everyone is being played a little bit, here, being prompted to emotional reactionaryism as a means of reaching into and infecting those Americans of good-will who until the “flashpoint” and the sudden hue-and-cry couldn’t be moved to hate? Moved to grousing, yes, but never before moved to real, unadulterated hate? Illusionists are clever sorts - they are specialists at making us look at one thing, and convincing us that we know what we are seeing, while they are actually doing something else, entirely. It’s called “misdirection.” What if the illegal immigration flashpoint was never about immigration at all, but about getting people stirred to “hate.” Who would do that, you ask? Think about it. Who and what does hate serve? What happens to the soul of a nation, when “hate” is the overpowering force driving a majority of people - it doesn’t matter which “side.” I wrote last year:
I read a forum last night wherein a poster made a prayer of thanksgiving offered to God with a sneer toward all those who didn’t have the same opinion as the writer. An awful prayer, offered with such an undertone of disdain and superiority, and I thought…well…Bush did say he was worried about how this was affecting the soul of the nation. Oh, I forgot, that was “offensive.” How dare the president presume to think he needs to worry about the nation’s soul, when it’s full of Godly men and women who know they’re Right before the Lord? (Do any of us ever really know that? Are any of us so scrupulous in our behavior and in examining our consciences that we know that?) Why, if Bush would just fall in line, they wouldn’t hate anyone! It’s Bush’s fault that they hate. Some on the Right have been “offended” a lot, lately; they’ve embraced the politics of “hurt feelings and insult” that usually characterizes the Left, and with breathtaking ease. Maybe you’re reading this right now and saying, “damn straight I was; offended and insulted!” But when you got offended because some charged a racial component to all of this, did you think you’d end up writing the words “kiss my white American ass,” just a few days later, as though your ass being a white American one made it an innately superior sort of ass? Did you think you’d be referring to the president as “Jorge” as though having such a name is a bad thing? When you got offended because the president worried about our national soul, did you think you’d be wishing “a pox” on me and my kids and the American President? Did you think you’d be calling Bush a “villain?” Think about it, that’s all I’m saying. If a year ago you weren’t hating and now you are, think about it. As I said, roads can make surprising turns. Things have a way of working out in ways we don’t always anticipate. Already some are looking at this uncontrolled hate and feeling surprising sympathy for Bush, even if they don’t much like him.
Yes…in very short order the force of hate has left us unsure of who we are - and a house divided cannot long stand. My fear is that the fracturing of the center-Right and Right, coupled with the wayward far-left is going to destroy America faster than any desert-running alien ever could. Who would that serve? Hmmmm….lemmee think. The next year is going to be interesting as hell. See also: Sister Toldjah who gives the right an even-handed (far-right and center-right) rebuke, and well done, too! http://theanchoressonline.com/2007/06/08/so-loser-wheres-part-iii/trackback/ 44 Responses to ““So, Loser, where’s Part III?”” |
June 8th, 2007 at 8:35 am
[...] “So, Loser, where’s Part III?” [...]
June 8th, 2007 at 9:48 am
After all the time you’ve been posting, and all the thoughtful posts you’ve made, the haters are so blinded by their snarling anger that they fail to comprehend that you’re a fool for no one but Jesus. Just as Paul exhorted us all to be. I imagine some of your recent critics as the subjects for Munch’s The Scream, only instead of “existential angst,” their faces are twisted with self-satisfied hatred as they sink beneath the waves of a sea of their own bile.
Keep the faith.
June 8th, 2007 at 9:59 am
Anchoress, thanks for keeping your head. I take the irrational outrage to be a function mostly of anxiety; and I think if we’re honest with ourselves we have to acknowledge that much anxiety about immigration has more to do with the fading away of our own core conception of what it means to be an American than it does with immigration. Fading and dilution look much the same, so it’s easy to blame the decline of national identity on the addition of people who don’t belong here. But I think there is an awfully good argument that what we’re experiencing is a subtraction from public life rather than an unwelcome addition: a disappearance of public virtue, a disappearance of common dedication to the common good.
Please keep writing on this subject. And save that draft of Part III. I think you will need it again soon.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:12 am
I hear what you’re saying. How anyone can take this to the levels of wishing ill on an ideological opponent’s children is beyond me. Bad enough that people wish ill on their idealogical opponent. I started to restate all the reasons why this is no ordinary political fight, and that most of us on my side of the argument truly believe that the impact of this bill was so far reaching and negative that it was worth the political repercussions to force them to either fix the problems, or scrap it and start over; this time not a back room rush job but working through the normal legislative process. But then I decided it wasn’t worth bothering with. Everyone’s decided, and the lines are drawn. We all have our own opinions, and worse, we all have our own facts. The vast majority of us are perfectly willing to compromise and legalize yet again - the polls all show this - but this time we’re demanding the other side put up first. Well, what’s the point… hasn’t it all been said?
Except this: I don’t believe our nation has a soul - in any sense of the word. We have God-given rights, laws, and citizens. If we and our elected officials protect those, that will be more than enough.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:19 am
You are a fine woman, who by all accounts, have raised two beautiful sons with the help of your husband.
For anyone to wish bad on anyone else is beyond my comprehension.
I have been thinking a lot about politics lately and I have come to the conclusion that I don’t enjoy them as much as I once did.
I pray the Lord will lift up someone who will be worthy of the office of President of the United States and make him known to us. That shows you how I feel about the current crop of would-be presidents on either side.
History shows the powerful governments last about 200 years. We are at the point that we are rotting from within.
Congress can’t do anything without a foodfight, and that includes both sides of the aisle.
I say send them home without pay for the remainder of this congress for as much good they are doing and the real harm they are causing this country I love so much.
I am an American before I am a Republican, and I am a Christian before I’m an American.
I actually fear for our country with all the hate dripping from everyone, including the pediatric “leaders” of both parties in congress.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:23 am
Anchoress,
I disagree that the immigration bill is dead. Last night was a set back but it was fueled by two things. First the issue of Guest Worker that is deal breaker to Conservatives that support it and is viewed with hooor by the Unions. Also Reid wants something to pass. THis is all about theatrics and strength. Bush and much of the White House team are preoccupied in Europe at the moment. From what I am reading the Bush team is FAR from throwing in the towel.
When I count the votes Bush is tantalizing close to 60 votes. I can count the senators that will get almost get him there. Further did you notice that the requirement of Rep House Reps has gone down from 70 to 40 by the dems to sign on. That is was hinted at in the Washington Post. Already he has got part of that number and I think he can get the rest.
THe Corner said this to morning:
It’s Not Over [Kathryn Jean Lopez]
A Senate aide cautions:
First, yes, the victory yesterday - a product of tireless efforts by a handful of conservative Senators and staff - is a nice pause in this debacle. But I am afraid that is all it may be… the White House is still 100% committed to getting this bill passed. Harry Reid is looking to actually accomplish SOMETHING for crying out loud… and there is no tiring by … the entire “deal-making” team.
“The White House has a full plan of attack. They are ready to start plucking votes one-by-one. Conservatives should note precisely which Senators were with us on defeating cloture and compare that to how Senators may change if the bill comes back… in other words, we should make sure we know which Senators are bought-off if the White House does what we believe they will.
The sad reality is that people are putting far too much stock in the votes against cloture for some of the deal-makers. Some felt they had to vote that way in order to be “fair” to the caucus. However, those guys were ready to vote the other way if they had felt they could get away with it. Seriously, don’t make too much of their votes…
there were very specific reasons why they did it - and it had to do with the tough stances of a few conservative senators…”
That from the person that opposes this bill. I think people are underestimating how important this is to Bush. HE recognizes that there is a anti immigration wing in the party and he wants to defeat it now before it cause damage that cannot be repaired.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:42 am
Jeanette
Post 5
I agree the hate is horrible. Yes the Dems are responsible for a good bit of that. I remember when Bush in all goodwill reached out his hand to them early in the term and look what he got back.
However, I am not a democrat. I am a Republican, and a Socail Christian Conservative. I cant’t control what is going on over there but I have a responsibilty to police my own. It is time to admit some on the right started this also. I was never a Clinton fan but I do remember all the conspiracy theories how Clinton and Hillary were killing people left and right.
THe left responded and we respond back. The spam email I am recieving from so called “conservative” organizations horrifies me. Does anyone here really think that Bush is going to replace the Dollar bill with the Amero and disolve the Supreme Court and replace it with the North American Union? The problems was that we and and the Bush adminsitration did not respond to all this nonsense. Dems believe in large numbers that Bush kneww about 911 before it happened. We laugh haow silly. But we have our won crazies. The only talks show host that ever responded to the rights nonsense was Michael MEdved. May his number increase.
Lastly, consider this. Many people will recieve vast amounts of direct mail over the next few days talking about how “conservatives” won. Notice they shall ask for more money to keep up the fight. Notice if you donate that your mail will be flooded with even more “conservative organizations” asking for more money to save the Republic from falling. DO a little research folks. These groups are all linked. THere is no conspiracy here. It is just people making a bucjkand the immigration issue is the best Cash cow they have seen in years. There are reason why people do not want this settled.
June 8th, 2007 at 12:37 pm
[...] The Anchoress seems to be dealing with victory-bile from those honorable and mature immigration hypochondriacs. If there ever was an example of going [...]
June 8th, 2007 at 12:41 pm
[...] No response I dropped the Gauntlet, but She got nothing Like I said, I’m the same person I was a year ago. Are you? Ask yourself if you’re [...]
June 8th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
[...] Anchoress - although taking some heat in her email - has had a series of posts on immigration. We disagree profoundly on this issue, but I have to [...]
June 8th, 2007 at 12:50 pm
From a lifetime of sports play and fandom:
Things are never as bad as they seem after a loss…, and never as good as they seem after a victory.
`
I am encouraged that Americans on both sides of the immigration debate are so emotionally invested in the fate of our nation. It is proper that political combatants who care greatly would react with heat and emotion. It is not perfectly gracious, yet it is perfectly imperfectly human. I am happy to see it. We are told Americans don’t pay attention to politics. Someone paid attention to this. Someone cared. On both sides.
`
Separately: this debate was a meshing of
`
Greek philosophy
Christian principles
America’s founders/founding principles
MSM
Internet/national typing skills
talk radio.
`
This was amazing meshing of all those. If the Founding Fathers could’ve invented the Internet and talk radio, they would have. This was democracy in action. It was rough and tumble. It was a messy blessing. It was democratic art. I thank God for it.
June 8th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
One last thought before I actually do some work.
I am an political nerd. I was one of those political nerd kids that could sit enthralled watching C-span during the summers. I was the first to be a legislative page in during the breaks in the State Legislature. If I just set out there passing out papers to the Louisiana State Senate Committee on Civil Law I was in heaven.
What disturbs me about the whole immigration bill and those that oppose it is at times a matter of tactics. This applies to other issues also that I have seen used recently.
For isntance this morning on the blogs, I am hearing a lot still about the problem is that supporters didnt read this bill and they were all ignorant fools.
I must say this. That talking point shows First(1) a standard that is not applied to other legislation we talk about constantly,
and
(2) a horrible lack of knowledge how this process works.
or I hate to say
(3) full knowledge of how the process works but a willingness to take advantage of the average Americans lack of basic civics
Parts of this bill were discusses at great detail. THe supporters endorsed the concepts in this bill. THey recognized that the Senate was just part of it and that further details would be worked out in the House then conference then it would have to again go to a vote.
There is a tact that was used that the Senate Bill had to be perfect in all respects. My friends(to borrow John Mcains word:) that never happens to any legislation. The Senate is part of the process as with every other bill. It is called making legislative sausage.
For those that wish to apply perfection to the Senate bill then they should be prepared to be demanded to have that state of perfection for any bill that they support that is proosed in one chamber of Congress. That is of course impossible and is not how the process works. In fact the Founders worked it out perfectly. The Senate is the perfect place for the broad concepts to be worked out. THe “People HOuse” that being th House of Represenatives is the perfect place of doing the business of getting those nitty details done.
PErfection in a bill that is on one chamber doesn’t work in the Congress and it doesnt work that way in the numerous bicamerial state legislatures we have in this Country
June 8th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
It’s a shame that those who disagree can never do it civilly, as adults. They always resort to name-calling. Like the schoolyard bullies they all are.
You, of all people on the great Net, put forth your ideas in the most thoughtful ways. I guess it’s too hard for them to understand - it makes them actually use their brains.
I for one, appreciate you and everything you do!
June 8th, 2007 at 3:21 pm
Anchoress: It isn’t “hate” to disagree with the various politicians that are seeking to impose a deeply unpopular approach to immigration reform on the United States.I believe absolutely that I have the right and-in fact- the duty to oppose politicians who I think are attempting to lead the US off a cliff.That’s how democracy works.It isn’t the “force of hate”.If the supporters of the immigration bill don’t like harsh rhetoric perhaps they should have refrained from denouncing opponents as nativists, bigots, and people who don’t want what’s right for America.As I have written, my opinion of George Bush is pretty low.I believe he is making an enormous error of historic proportion with his stance on immigration reform.Great leaders build coalitions, not tear them apart.George Bush is tearing the Republican coalition apart.This is not in the national interest, and I am not motivated by “hate” to think so.
June 8th, 2007 at 3:24 pm
I know what you mean Anchoress. I have seen and heard things from the right that make me think the left looks sane.
And the hate, well there is no excuse for that. And if they did win, what did they win? They are exactly where they started from, they have accomplished nothing but to insult other people who probably agree with them on most every other issue. Instead they call Mitch McConnel and George Bush traitors. That is just bizarre.
I have been called so many names in the last few days that I wonder why these people think that I would ever listen to another word they said, believe it or not reading blogs and listening to pundits is not mandatory. I got along with them before I met them and I can get along without them now.
June 8th, 2007 at 4:08 pm
I haven’t heard the “Pox on you!” curse used in a serious connotation lately. Or, in that fact, ever.
I’ve actually been rather stunned by the vehemence coming from the Right, the insanity from the Left, and the sheer and utter incompetence of the entire Congress at this point. All the while, we’re treated to the worlds most boring debates between Presidential contenders who started campaigning 23 months before the election.
Can we just scrap them all and start fresh? Please?
June 8th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
Xenndey wrote:It isn’t the “force of hate”.If the supporters of the immigration bill don’t like harsh rhetoric perhaps they should have refrained from denouncing opponents as nativists, bigots, and people who don’t want what’s right for America.
Come on, you know that’s not honest. Right wing forums and bloggers (and radio commentators) have been spewing vile business at Bush and he has never returned in kind…finally he verbalizes a little resistance and the right all but strokes out…how dare he talk to you that way (doesn’t even matter if they take him in context or not - how dare he!)
If you’re being honest you know you can go to a rightwing forum right now and find hate, directed at Bush, directed at those “RINO’s” who don’t fall in line, etc.
As I said in one of the posts - it shouldn’t be insulting to you to acknowledge that, as with any movement or group, there are always going to be some members who are extreme and obnoxious. Conservatives do not have the corner on perfection.
June 8th, 2007 at 4:53 pm
I have to say, that Byron Dorgan comment is one of the more rediculous things I’ve heard in a long while. Whoever said that must not know much about politics, because Byron Dorgan is only against this immigration bill because he’s a tool of big labor. He’s also an antiwar lefty-populist senator in the mold of Tom Daschle. If immigration tops EVERY OTHER ISSUE for you, then by all means vote for an anti-immigration, tax-raising socialist-populist antiwar democrat over a republican who you may disagree with on ONE issue, but then don’t later proclaim yourself a war supporter or take part in the recriminations that will be taking place after a big self-inflicted loss in the War on Terror, like the abandonment of Iraq due to a self-serving narcissism infecting this society when it comes to issues of war and peace.
Sorry for the tone of this comment, but I’ve heard Dorgan spout some real whoppers during committee hearings, and I’ve heard him spread this “Bush Lied About Iraq” narrative with all of the energy of Carl Levin. He’s not a good guy. Even if you’re happy that he killed the immigration bill, he’s not a good guy.
June 8th, 2007 at 6:20 pm
colin:
But you see, while dealing with Kennedy is beyond the pale, sucking up to Dorgan is fine and dandy because he stuck it to Bush.
June 8th, 2007 at 8:46 pm
Terrye,
I know you’re using sarcasm, so I hope you won’t mind, but I want to address the basic point in your post. I really don’t have a problem with people opposing this bill. I think this bill is a good start, but accept that others have their opinions, and that their fears are justified by years of government inaction on this issue. However, opponent’s frustration with immigration policy over a 20 year period, and disappointment with the current bill is no reason to turn on Bush. He’s not popular. The war’s not popular. So what. Truman left office with a 22% approval rating. But he’s doing the right thing, and up until three weeks ago, most of the angry immigration opponents would agree with that assessment. You can disagree with Bush and some GOP politicians on this one issue without pulling an Andrew Sullivan. In all likelihood the immigration bill is dead for the remainder of the Bush Administration. However, the war remains. There are rogue states and a transnational terror network still out there plotting new and different attacks in new and imaginative ways, “black swans” designed to swoop down and shock us, humble us, push us into desperation and defeat. We also are dealing with 50% of our own population that sees the current government as more of a threat than those who have vowed to kill us. Disagree with Bush over immigration if you wish, but please don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater. Please recognize everything that he’s done to fight a war that many don’t even wish to acknowledge exists. Please don’t weaken our commander-in-chief in the midst of a global war.
Terrye, I know this doesn’t apply to you, but I just wanted to use what you said to go off on a little tangent about the stakes of abandoning this President. I hope you don’t mind.
June 8th, 2007 at 9:12 pm
Anchoress,
I have been one who has spewed my fear, concern, disgust, and dismay regarding the immigration circus - but I hope no hate. The supplications offered in Orthodox Divine Liturgy specifically pray, numerous times, for “Our president and all civil authorities, and our armed forces, Let us pray to the Lord.” and each time I think of those people in Congress and elsewhere who make me want to wring their necks…and still I pray “Lord have mercy.”
But I don’t feel victory over this bill - I feel sad. And I have done much reading and done much thinking. What distresses me most about this immigration bill and the bills preceding it is the lack of political will and bureaucratic competence to get the job done that needs to be done. And to darken this mood even more, I see the failure of the Corburn bill #1311 which was voted down by one of my own TX senators! The bill asks that we enforce CURRENT LAWS. We can’t even get the Congress to agree to enforce current laws!! There is no will to fix problems that the Constitution says are the basic responsibilites of the Federal government.
This time is just a breather while forces are remarshalled. I am not against immigration. My mother immigrated from Dublin, through Ellis Island. My father’s parents spoke German, but they learned English too. I am not blind to birthrate declines, or to labor needs.
But this bill gave up all the levers right out of the box, and NEVER will get the job done. The economy that hires and abuses illegals will continue. The illegals can stay here forever without citizenship, but entitled to all social programs. We cannot screen millions within a 24 hour interval of application. The national security implications are stark and staggering.
With or without a bill, we need to secure the borders. At that point, let’s look at options to deal with those illegals already here. And because of the lack of will, there is no confidence in any bill that does not attack the problem IN THAT ORDER.
Even when my parents came to this country, it was “root, hog, or die.” They got here just in time for the Great Depression. The massive social safety net was not in place. It is now in place, much abused, and coming apart at the seams. Suddenly entitling millions of unskilled, workers who will destroy an already struggling infrastructure is madness.
So I feel some betrayed. But mostly heartwrenchingly disappointed. I think Bush is a good man. I pray for plenty of civil authorities that, in my opinion are not good men (or women.) But the only motives that I can see are pretty base, and I’d like to think better of those elected to be our leaders.
Besides, as I offer my prayer, my opinion on these people doesn’t mean squat to Him to whom I offer it. “God, have mercy on me, a sinner.”
So dispite my anger, which has now simmered down to disgust and dispair, I appreciate the voice you add to the debate. And I can’t imagine wishing ill on Buster - he represents hope in the future - what a great kid!
June 8th, 2007 at 11:13 pm
Ahh, anchoress. I’m sorry people’ve been hateful. that’s not right. Me, I’m the same person I was a year ago:-)
I hope the bill still works. My philosophy is and always had been, that anything the far right and the far left agree on should scare the heck out of the rest of us.
June 9th, 2007 at 12:36 am
Stephanie, I agree, you are the same as you were a year ago - perhaps even nicer!
Honestly, I’m not “hurt” or whatever about these missives…I was more amused than anything by most of it. People are fired up and making asses of themselves left and right…literally left and right! I think the folks commenting here have been fantastic.
June 9th, 2007 at 1:25 am
I keep hearing people saying SECURE TTE BORDERS. As Brownback said the other night during the debate we have tried enforcement only. THe 96 Enforcement bill for example.
In 86 we spent about 260 million on border security. Now we spend over 2 billion. In 86 we had much less numerous border patrol compared to now.
On the border in large areas we have soemthing better than a fence. That is a huge desert that unfort people die in alone and horribly in
THe fact is that the FENCE is not really a solution. People will dig under or climb over the fence. THe problem is that we dont have a workable verfication system and ID. If we had that the Current laws could be enforceable because currently the Feds cannot prove the cases in court. That is just the facts
Also we have 50,000 Irish illegals. 1.5 million Asian illegals. Most of these folks did not come from Mexico
When MCcain said the other night that over a third of our illegal aliens came here legally and became illega by overstaying their visas he is not just whistling Dixie there. That is true. THere is a myth that after 86 we had a rush to the border. Not really. Ourt illegal alien population stayed steady arounf 3.5 million. It was Economic boom starting around 95 that caused it to increase
I keep hearing from conservatives that we need to spend billions on a fence. YEt as a conservative I always thought we were wise stewards of the taxpayer money. No one has really shown me that a fence is a wise use of money versus work place verification. ID and interior worrkplace enforcement. Again is the the fence(as envisoned by many) just a conservative version of a Big feel good govt project?
June 9th, 2007 at 5:21 am
Colin:
I agree with you. I voted for Bush in spite of not because of people like Peggy Noonan because I thought that he would make a stronger president in the face of some really evil people out there. Now it seems the right is more afraid of Mexicans than they are Islamists and they would abandon the war on Terror over this issue. If they do that, why would I vote Republican?
June 9th, 2007 at 5:24 am
Good work. I like that you identified the “BBS” crowd, balancing the “BDS” analysis. Both are spot on. I heard an aphorism once that Great Minds think about ideas, Average Minds about events and Small Minds about people. You’re solidly in that first group. Go ahead on.
June 9th, 2007 at 5:57 am
Sometimes for my own amusement, it like to look a the different players in a debate and transport them back to 1776 and match them to an appropriate faction - rebels, loyalists, or indifferent. This to me seems like a solid Tory camp. Peace and quiet are the highest value.
That’s fine for folks who value peace and quiet above all else. But the path of least resistance oftentimes leads to an undesirable place. In this case, the rabble-rousers are merely encouraging the government to become trustworthy and live up to their oaths of office. Over the past decades, they have repeatedly proven themselves unable to do it unassisted.
There are times when it becomes necessary to venture outside of one’s personal comfort zone to make the the correct path the one of least resistance. This appears to be one of those times. Civility has been misinterpreted as passivity. A recalibration is in long overdue.
June 9th, 2007 at 5:59 am
Anchoress: I stand by my comment.It’s striking just how often I’ve seen opponents of this bill slammed by proponents as hateful bigots and told to stop hating or simply to shut up.When I see leftists do that it’s a good sign that they know they’ve lost the argument.It appears that the same is true of Bush loyalists.
June 9th, 2007 at 10:35 am
A Brave Series Of Posts From the Anchoress…
On the illegal immigration kerfuffle. In three parts, she analyzes Bush’s critics on the right, which will almost certainly gain her no friends. I largely agree with her on the criticism of Bush being unduly harsh from his erstwhile friends, but am fo…
June 9th, 2007 at 11:38 am
Dear Anchoress,
I value all of your posts, but by far the most helpful have been these three on the immigration debate. I’ve heard from some friends how well you’ve represented what they are thinking, which is both marvelous and very sad that dissent is a problem on the right.
The inability of the left to process dissent has been debilitating, but lest the right get conceited, the left doesn’t appear to have a monopoly.
I wonder if the diminished capacity for mature and civil discussion hasn’t been a result in part from individuals who read only those with whom they agree? If that’s the case, that is a shame.
Thank you for pulling us together and please keep up the good work.
June 9th, 2007 at 11:50 am
I’ve seen opponents of this bill slammed by proponents as hateful bigots and told to stop hating or simply to shut up.When I see leftists do that it’s a good sign that they know they’ve lost the argument.It appears that the same is true of Bush loyalists.
That’s funny…you don’t know how many on your side have written to me, “Anchoress you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about so why don’t you leave this to the people who really care about America?”
Sometimes they bring up the fact that I used to be a liberal dem, so they always knew I’d turn out to be a secret lefty.
But by all means, Xennedy, keep thinking that “fence now” people are the only ones being told to shut up, because the other side has no argument!
June 9th, 2007 at 1:40 pm
The notion that the bill was opposed primarily by the far right and far left, as espoused by the apparently detached Senator McConnell as well as many others, is of course absurd. It is in fact THE MIDDLE that are opposed to amnesty and lackluster border security, and by middle I mean the MIDDLE CLASS. They are the ones that seem to have been forgotten in this debate. They are called nativists, xenophobes, racists, bigots, et al for voicing concerns about depressed wages, and (gasp) the preservation of our nation language and culture. The overwhelming hate in this debate seems to be espoused by the beneficiaries of cheap labor in the Republican party who have begun to adopt the tactics of the left in forwarding their cause, i.e. accuse those who oppose you of being politically incorrect, rather substanatively challenge them on facts. There is no better example of the ignominous means by which the conservative base has been attacked by members of it’s own party than in the disgusting display of condescension and sanctimony carried on among the Wall Street Journal editorial board. How are we supposed to respond to this sort of thing? Passively?
June 9th, 2007 at 5:34 pm
lsusportsfan
Perhaps it is that I am a different sort of political nerd. I was never an intern but I have stuffed thousands of envilopes, rung thousands of doorbells and worked as a poll watcher in more elections than I can recall. I even defended Harriet Meyers, God help me. I am not delighted to be on the same side of this issue with the people who were throwing their dresses up over their faces and shrieking about the Dubai ports deal but there it is.
I did not bother to read the details of this current bill because any immigration bill is going to be a mixture of enforcement and amnesty. By not building the fence, President Bush has indicated that he is not going to enforce the provisions of this law any more than he or his predecessors going back to at least as long ago as Jimmy Carter have enforced our immigration laws.
The fence was an opportunity to show good faith. As a practical matter, if a fence were not effective, the open borders people would not be so strongly opposed to it. Not too many people will tunnel under a 700 mile fence. It is much easier to go around it. That means that the same number of Border Patrol agents will be more effective by patrolling along the 1247 miles of unfenced border.
As for the 50,000 Irish illegally living in the US, there are not quite so many of them coming here illegally since Ireland became the fastest growing GDP in Europe. The 1.5 million Asians are an order of magnitude less than the 12 to 20 million Mexicans living here illegally. If there were only 1.5 million Mexicans illegally living in the US, I do not think that you would be able to generate all that much interest in the subject.
June 10th, 2007 at 2:06 am
You are a real gem!
I’ve read most of your essays and some of your links; I find your essays interesting and so sane I could kiss you (except I’m female and married–but you get my drift).
About the IIAs (Illegal Immigration Absolutists)…one of the questions I’ve been asking is, what are you going to do if the GOP take THEIR marbles and go home? They seemed genuinely shocked that the GOP (which many of them claim no allegiance to…”I’m a Conservative/American FIRST…Republican distant second or not all all” will stop dancing to their tune.
Well it looks like we’re about to find out. Senator Kyl said that his phone has been ringing off the hook with people who NOW wants to compromise for fear that a WH controlled in 2008 and a Congress majority of Democrats will get them a bill they REALLY won’t like. Thus Kyl has promised to “try again.” But I think his GOP colleagues don’t trust the “base” any more than the “base” trust them–and won’t go along.
The IIAs killed not just this bill but the issue for at least 2 more years…perhaps forever.
What voter dependent politician would want to take a chance at being “stoned” by the IIAs again? It took them a few tries, but the GOP minority finally gets it…the “only” thing the IIAs want is what they cannot give them.
12 million (10,000 per day would take 100 YEARS!) deported.
June 10th, 2007 at 7:42 am
[...] partly because I don’t really understand all of its details, but also because so many people whose opinions I respect are in disagreement…this is causing my inchoate [...]
June 10th, 2007 at 9:21 am
I’d like to point out, as Big Lizards has done in a comment replying to somebody screaming JUST BUILD THE WALL! BUILD IT! BUILD IT NOW!!!, that just because the fence isn’t up RIGHT NOW is no indication that President Bush has just been sitting on his ass doing nothing, or actively sabotaging the project. I always knew the fence would take time. It can take a whole year to put up a building; even without the paperwork, putting up hundreds of miles of fencing, particularly fencing that doesn’t merely mark a borderline but is actually physically difficult for people to go over or under, will take a while. Apparently, this being a federal government project, there is a crazy mass of paperwork that has to be done BEFORE anybody can even break ground. That isn’t Bush’s fault, government operated like that before Bush came along, and it will continue to operate like that long after the Bush-betrayed-us brigade cheers lustily as Bush leaves the White House.
I guess for some people, once they start hating somebody (like Bush), it becomes way too easy to find reasons to hate him even more, even if those reasons don’t hold up under scrutiny.
June 10th, 2007 at 1:04 pm
“The 1.5 million Asians are an order of magnitude less than the 12 to 20 million Mexicans living here illegally. ”
Really? the 12 million figure includes only Mexicans? There’s not another country in Latin America? And here I thought there were several.
I don’t want to get distracted, but really- not everyone who speaks Spanish is Mexican.
Ok- off my little tirade :-). It seems a lot of the repetitive loop here seems to be which should come first, the chicken or the egg. Many people agree that immigration needs to be fixed. Many people agree we need to build a fence, and close the borders. The question seems to be, which should we do first? Therein lies the rub. To me, I don’t feel like I can legitimately punish someone for crossing the border illegally when there hasn’t been an easy way for them to do so legally. Others disagree- they feel that we need to enforce the existing laws first, then we can worry about making them more fair.
If a man steals a loaf of bread b/c he is starving, does it matter why he stole it? To me, it makes a difference if the reason he stole it was because there was no other way for him to get it.
June 10th, 2007 at 1:47 pm
Here’s what most people that are supporters of the bill never seem to consider: What if the Bill had passed? What then? Maybe it would have worked out fine. Maybe it would have had mixed result. But, what if it had ended up having very bad results? Think about that the next time you speak out in support of a bill of this magnitude. Why do I say that? For the simple fact that, no matter what the outcome would have been-the long term effects would probably have been irreversible. We would have been stuck with the law-and more importantly, we would have been stuck with the results.
The proponents of this bill messed up mainly by insisting on an “all or nothing” approach. If they had passed a border enforcement bill, and adequately secured the borders, then maybe after a few years, if it had been demonstrated that this was the case, that the borders were indeed secured, that illegal immigration had been drastically reduced to a crawl, if not completely stopped (which would be a preferable though probably unrealistic hope) then MAYBE the American people who opposed this bill might not have been so adamant in their opposition.
But the proponents arrogantly insisted on shoving this bill down the throat of the American people, whether they liked it or not. They deserved to lose. It was right that they lost. And personally, I will vote against, or otherwise work to oppose, any Senator or “representative” who supports this or any similar bill, regardless of what else they purport to support or oppose.
June 11th, 2007 at 9:23 am
Quick notes:
1. Instapunk agrees with you on a rather crucial point: http://www.instapunk.com/archives/InstaPunkArchiveV2.php3?a=1057
2. I like my brothers and sisters in general, but calling the Anchoress names and making asinine comments about peace symbols makes me want to go Essene on their sorry butts sometimes.
3. Looking forward to part 3. Non illigitamus carborundum.
June 13th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
S.1348 ONE TOUGH BILL TO DEFEND…
As I am not convinced that the immigration bill is dead, I decided to add what I felt I could to the debate that has been raging for the past few weeks. Perhaps someday in the near future there will be a wikipedia link to an imperfect bill that wil…
June 13th, 2007 at 11:39 pm
I just wanted to let you know I really enjoyed your posts about the Immigration debate. I quoted you in a post I wrote recently of course with a link back to your full post. I have also added your site to my Essential Links list and plan to use the link to visit again soon.
Thank you.
June 18th, 2007 at 11:35 pm
Thank you, thank you, thank you. As others have written, I’ve felt so alone about this issue. There are so many inconsistencies with other conservative positions and the immigration issue. Free markets, distrust of big government, government inefficiency, all that goes out the window when dealing with immigration it seems.
September 15th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
[...] the responses I got the last time I focused on this issue, I almost hate to bring it up…but here [...]
September 25th, 2007 at 11:20 am
[...] the endless go-rounds about illegal immigration I wrote a while back: What if it’s all an illusion, just like the Cinco de Mayo “nationwide protests” by [...]